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对法律定义的试译
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Seaguest
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Thanks very much for your providing me with so many materials Sep 4, 2005

Lesley McLachlan

Is this the Max Weber quote? 6:33am

迈向一种法律的社会理论——马克斯·韦伯法律思想研究·第三章 - [ Translate this page ]
迈向一种法律的社会理论——马克斯·韦伯法律思想研究·第三章. 作者郑戈 2004-04-01
点击378次 ... (b).法律:为了保障人们遵守它或者是对违反它的行为进行惩罚,有一群
专职人员来维持进行(身体或心理)强制的可能性,从而赋予它一种外在的保障。[10] 韦伯 ...


Yes,I think this translation is better than mine.


Here is the Holmes... 6:52am

中国私法网--法律的道路(一) - [ Translate this page ]
说明:本文乃陈绪纲先生所翻译的霍姆斯之《法律的道路》。霍姆斯乃美国最重要的法官
之一。令人遗憾的是,国内对霍姆斯著作的 ... 对于法庭将会如何行事的预测,而不是别的
什么更为矫饰造作的东西,正是我所称的法律。 再拿一个被一般认为是法律所包含的最 ...
www.privatelaw.com.cn/new2004/ sxwd/..%5Cshtml%5C20040518-232150.htm - 45k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

中国律师网互动社区: 霍姆斯:法律的道路 - [ Translate this page ]
法律的道路霍姆斯当我们研究法律的时候,我们不是在研究一个神秘莫测的事物,而是在
研究一行众所周知的职业。 ... 对于法庭将会如何行事的预测,而不是别的什么更为矫饰
造作的东西,正是我所称的法律。 再拿一个被一般认为是法律所包含的最宽泛的概念来 ...
www.acla.org.cn/forum/showflat. php?Cat=&Number=547989&Main=547989 - 93k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages


As for Holms definition, I think the translator misunderstood and misinterpreted the sentence. In his translation, the subject is a person outside the juridical process. But I think that the real meaning is that it is the cause of a court's actions should be the subject.


 
Seaguest
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我这样翻译可以吗? Sep 4, 2005

Last Hermit wrote:

  法律乃行为之准则或法则,其不可逆转性足以用合理之确切性(确凿无疑地)鉴定某预测之真实。其权威性一旦受到挑战,则法庭必定强制执行其意旨。

Seaguest wrote:

Cardozo:
Law is a principle or rule of conduct so established as to justify a prediction with reasonable certainty that it will be enforced by the courts if its authority is challenged.
法律是一种既定的行为原则或规则,使人能以适度的把握预言:当法律的权威受到挑战时,会由法庭强制实施。


隐士前辈的翻译文采斐然,简洁生动:)非常佩服呵!

细细琢磨您的翻译,感觉您似乎是把一句话翻译成两句话了。在原文中,预言针对的是法庭的强制力,而在您的翻译中,预言并不专门指向法庭的权威性。我想是不是可以翻译成这样:

法律是一种原则或行为规则,其确定性可使人蛮有把握预言:当其权威受到挑战时,会由法庭强制执行其意旨。


 
Last Hermit
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这句犹如天书:其不可逆转性足以用合理之确切性鉴定某预测之真实 Sep 4, 2005

  原因是搞错意思了。前面的“so”等于“as”,因此这句应改为“与预言变作确凿之事实一样,不可逆转”。整段可改成:

  法律乃既定之行为准则或法则,犹如预言成确凿之事情般不可逆转,而其权威性一旦受到挑战,则交由法庭来强制执行其意旨。

Last Hermit wrote:

  法律乃行为之准则或法则,其不可逆转性足以用合理之确切性(确凿无疑地)鉴定某预测之真实。其权威性一旦受到挑战,则法庭必定强制执行其意旨。

Seaguest wrote:

Cardozo:
Law is a principle or rule of conduct so established as to justify a prediction with reasonable certainty that it will be enforced by the courts if its authority is challenged.
法律是一种既定的行为原则或规则,使人能以适度的把握预言:当法律的权威受到挑战时,会由法庭强制实施。


 
Last Hermit
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第二段 Sep 4, 2005

  对于我来说,法律者不外乎预言将来法庭如何做罢了,谈不上什么高深。


The prophecies of what the courts will do in fact, and nothing more pretentious, are what I mean by the law.


 
Wenjer Leuschel (X)
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一直有個疑問 Sep 10, 2005

Last Hermit,

我一直有個疑問。在英文裡,我讀不出 "不可逆" 這樣的意思。

"so established as to justify a prediction with reasonable certainty that it will be enforced by the courts if its authority is challenged." 在我讀來應指前頭提的 "原則或規則" 被訂立而可據之以合理確定預言:如果那樣的原則或規則受到挑戰,法庭會是怎樣執行那樣的原則或規則的。

會是我理解錯誤了嗎?I'll be right back.

Last Hermit wrote:

  原因是搞错意思了。前面的“so”等于“as”,因此这句应改为“与预言变作确凿之事实一样,不可逆转”。整段可改成:

  法律乃既定之行为准则或法则,犹如预言成确凿之事情般不可逆转,而其权威性一旦受到挑战,则交由法庭来强制执行其意旨。

Last Hermit wrote:

  法律乃行为之准则或法则,其不可逆转性足以用合理之确切性(确凿无疑地)鉴定某预测之真实。其权威性一旦受到挑战,则法庭必定强制执行其意旨。

Seaguest wrote:

Cardozo:
Law is a principle or rule of conduct so established as to justify a prediction with reasonable certainty that it will be enforced by the courts if its authority is challenged.
法律是一种既定的行为原则或规则,使人能以适度的把握预言:当法律的权威受到挑战时,会由法庭强制实施。


[Edited at 2005-09-10 17:23]


 
Wenjer Leuschel (X)
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About law, principle and rule Sep 10, 2005

剛找到以下這樣的文字:

A social law is a rule that forbids or requires a given conduct of all members of a community. Laws are established by custom or through adoption by a legislature, that is, a group of people given the power to make laws. A mathematical law is different from a social law.

A mathematical law is a principle or rule that, if applied throughout a body of mathematics, or to all members of a set, the mathematical operation performed is guaranteed to result in a correct solution.

In other words, a mathematical law is a procedure, or rule, that if followed, will guarantee that the math involved will be performed correctly. Not performing mathematics according to a law will result in an incorrect solution.


內容說的雖是數學,但對一位法學者來說,法律似乎也應該像數學一樣精確。大概只有文學的語言沒準吧?不過,要是所有人類表達的都能像以上所引的文字,咱們幹翻譯的就有福了!


 
Xiaoping Fu
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拙见供参考 Sep 11, 2005

[quote]
Law is a principle or rule of conduct so established as to justify a prediction with reasonable certainty that is will be enforced by the courts if its authority is challenged.
法律是一种既定的行为原则或规则,使人能以适度的把握预言:当法律的权威受到挑战时,会由法庭强制实施。
[\quote]

试译:

“法律是一种得到确立的行为原则或规范。法律之确立使人能以合理的确定性预见,如果它的权威受到挑战,法庭会以强制力量来实施它。”


Max Weber:
An order will be called law if it is externally guaranteed by the probability that coercion(physical or psychological), to bring about conformity or avenge violation, will be applied by a staff of people holding themselves sepcially ready for that purpose.
如果一种秩序获得外界的承诺,为了实现一致性或对侵犯行为予以报复,可能由专人负责以强制(身体上或心理上)手段来实现此一目的,该秩序就被称作法律。


试译:

如果一种秩序得到某种外部盖然性的保障,即一些专司此职的人员会实施(身体上的或心理上的)强制,来迫使人们遵守它或对违反它的行为实行报复,这种秩序就称为法律。





[Edited at 2005-09-11 08:03]

[Edited at 2005-09-11 08:04]


 
Wenjer Leuschel (X)
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是這樣的 Sep 11, 2005

[quote]Xiaoping Fu wrote:

Law is a principle or rule of conduct so established as to justify a prediction with reasonable certainty that is will be enforced by the courts if its authority is challenged.[\quote]

试译:

“法律是一种得到确立的行为原则或规范。法律之确立使人能以合理的确定性预见,如果它的权威受到挑战,法庭会以强制力量来实施它。”

An order will be called law if it is externally guaranteed by the probability that coercion(physical or psychological), to bring about conformity or avenge violation, will be applied by a staff of people holding themselves sepcially ready for that purpose.


试译:

如果一种秩序得到某种外部盖然性的保障,即一些专司此职的人员会实施(身体上的或心理上的)强制,来迫使人们遵守它或对违反它的行为实行报复,这种秩序就称为法律。


是的,傅先生,這樣的理解和我的理解相近,中文表達上或許有些差異。


 
Last Hermit
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俺忽略了一个法律常识,那就是习惯法 Sep 15, 2005

  所以弄不懂为什么一条“established rule”就可以“justify a prediction with reasonable certainty”。为便于理解,才译成了上述的意思。但终究以文害义。
  所以说,翻译时逻辑的考虑很重要,初涉译事者尤其应该注意。
  谢讨论!

Wenjer Leuschel wrote:

Last Hermit,

我一直有個疑問。在英文裡,我讀不出 "不可逆" 這樣的意思。

"so established as to justify a prediction with reasonable certainty that it will be enforced by the courts if its authority is challenged." 在我讀來應指前頭提的 "原則或規則" 被訂立而可據之以合理確定預言:如果那樣的原則或規則受到挑戰,法庭會是怎樣執行那樣的原則或規則的。

會是我理解錯誤了嗎?I'll be right back.

Last Hermit wrote:

  原因是搞错意思了。前面的“so”等于“as”,因此这句应改为“与预言变作确凿之事实一样,不可逆转”。整段可改成:

  法律乃既定之行为准则或法则,犹如预言成确凿之事情般不可逆转,而其权威性一旦受到挑战,则交由法庭来强制执行其意旨。

Last Hermit wrote:

  法律乃行为之准则或法则,其不可逆转性足以用合理之确切性(确凿无疑地)鉴定某预测之真实。其权威性一旦受到挑战,则法庭必定强制执行其意旨。

Seaguest wrote:

Cardozo:
Law is a principle or rule of conduct so established as to justify a prediction with reasonable certainty that it will be enforced by the courts if its authority is challenged.
法律是一种既定的行为原则或规则,使人能以适度的把握预言:当法律的权威受到挑战时,会由法庭强制实施。


[Edited at 2005-09-10 17:23]


 
Chrissy Lu
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我也来试一个吧 Oct 28, 2005

Law is a principle or rule of conduct so established as to justify a prediction with reasonable certainty that is will be enforced by the courts if its authority is challenged.

法律为行为之原则或规则,其确立使人们可合理确切地预知如其权威受到挑战,将由法庭强制执行。

我觉得justify是使...正当的意思,但是也可以直接翻译成使某某可以如何如何。


 
chica nueva
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typo in the quote... Oct 28, 2005

[quote]Xiaoping Fu wrote:


Law is a principle or rule of conduct so established as to justify a prediction with reasonable certainty that is will be enforced by the courts if its authority is challenged.
法律是一种既定的行为原则或规则,使人能以适度的把握预言:当法律的权威受到挑战时,会由法庭强制实施。
[\quote]



[Edited at 2005-09-11 08:03]

[Edited at 2005-09-11 08:04]


BTW The quote has a typo mistake (it/is) in it. It should be?:

Law is a principle or rule of conduct so established as to justify a prediction with reasonable certainty that it will be enforced by the courts if its authority is challenged.


 
Xiaoping Fu
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Yes. Oct 29, 2005

[quote]Lesley McLachlan wrote:

Xiaoping Fu wrote:


Law is a principle or rule of conduct so established as to justify a prediction with reasonable certainty that is will be enforced by the courts if its authority is challenged.
法律是一种既定的行为原则或规则,使人能以适度的把握预言:当法律的权威受到挑战时,会由法庭强制实施。
[\quote]



[Edited at 2005-09-11 08:03]

[Edited at 2005-09-11 08:04]


BTW The quote has a typo mistake (it/is) in it. It should be?:

Law is a principle or rule of conduct so established as to justify a prediction with reasonable certainty that it will be enforced by the courts if its authority is challenged.


It is a typo. Thanks!


 
ysun
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Translation of “plea agreement” Mar 3, 2017

最近一位朋友跟我聊起一条新闻。朋友问,plea agreement 到底是“认罪协议”还是当事人所说的“和解协议”?尽管我以前也常听到这一术语,但为了慎重起见,还是到网上作了一番调查。
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plea_bargain
The plea bargain (also plea agreement, plea deal, copping a plea, or plea in mitigation) is any agreement in a criminal case between the prosecutor and defendant whereby the defendant agrees to plead guilty to a particular charge in return for some concession from the prosecutor. This may mean that the defendant will plead guilty to a less serious charge, or to one of several charges, in return for the dismissal of other charges; or it may mean that the defendant will plead guilty to the original criminal charge in return for a more lenient sentence.[1]

由此看来,plea agreement 应该是“认罪协议”,而不是什么“和解协议”。该 plea agreement 中提到 “This defendant agrees to wave his right to be indicted, and to plead guilty to a single count of information charging him with engaging in a pattern of financial transactions to evade reporting requirements, in violation of 31 U.S. Code §§ 5324(a)(3) and 5324(d)(2), and C.F.R. §103.11.” 该协议中的 "plead guilty" 显然就是“认罪”。此外,我还去查了一下该认罪协议中提到的 31 U.S. Code § 5324:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5324
(d) Criminal Penalty.—
(1)In general.—
Whoever violates this section shall be fined in accordance with title 18, United States Code, imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or both.
(2)Enhanced penalty for aggravated cases.—
Whoever violates this section while violating another law of the United States or as part of a pattern of any illegal activity involving more than $100,000 in a 12-month period shall be fined twice the amount provided in subsection (b)(3) or (c)(3) (as the case may be) of section 3571 of title 18, United States Code, imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or both.

当事人所谓的“签了协议等于各让一步”,实际上就是“他主动认罪,法官就可能会判得轻一些”。“坦白从宽”能“等于各让一步”吗?所以,签了“认罪协议”、交了罚款并不就意味着万事大吉,还得看法官届时如何判。若嫌犯届时不出庭,那就成了逃犯。在美国生活不懂法可不行。同样,那被控非法持枪的不用强调那枪是合法的,因为那是两个不同的法律概念。倒不如也痛痛快快地签一个“认罪协议”,否则到时候喊“感谢菩萨”也没用。

看了上面这些法律文件,我更觉得法律翻译很不容易。

[Edited at 2017-03-04 02:28 GMT]


 
Meixia Jordan
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法网恢恢 Mar 4, 2017

ysun wrote:

最近一位朋友跟我聊起一条新闻。朋友问,plea agreement 到底是“认罪协议”还是当事人所说的“和解协议”?尽管我以前也常听到这一术语,但为了慎重起见,还是到网上作了一番调查。
由此看来,plea agreement 应该是“认罪协议”,而不是什么“和解协议”。
当事人所谓的“签了协议等于各让一步”,实际上就是“他主动认罪,法官就可能会判得轻一些”。“坦白从宽”能“等于各让一步”吗?所以,签了“认罪协议”、交了罚款并不就意味着万事大吉,还得看法官届时如何判。若嫌犯届时不出庭,那就成了逃犯。在美国生活不懂法可不行。同样,那被控非法持枪的不用强调那枪是合法的,因为那是两个不同的法律概念。倒不如也痛痛快快地签一个“认罪协议”,否则到时候喊“感谢菩萨”也没用。

看了上面这些法律文件,我更觉得法律翻译很不容易。

[Edited at 2017-03-04 02:28 GMT]


哈哈您说的这条新闻我前一阵子也读到了。“和解协议”听起来比“认罪协议”轻松多了,对不对?当事人这么说是有些大事化小,很有些误导观众的意味。其实到底如何,当事人应该是心里有数,估计也曾出了一把冷汗!
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-plea-agreement.htm

A plea agreement, also known as a plea bargain, is an agreement made between the prosecution and the defendant in a criminal case. The agreement generally states that the defendant will plead guilty of the crime or crimes and in exchange will receive a shorter sentence, lessened or dropped charges, or lesser fines than he or she would normally receive if found guilty during a trial. This helps many cases avoid going to trial, allowing prosecutors to take on larger case loads.


 
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对法律定义的试译






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