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Complimentary TM-Town membership for ProZ.com members
Thread poster: Jared Tabor
Krys Williams
Krys Williams  Identity Verified
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Polish to English
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Cannot get into the site Apr 26, 2016

I wanted to see what this is all about, followed the link in the original email I received from Proz, but was not allowed to enter via my Proz membership. I kept getting some error message about the data being invalid or something.

I replied to the original email saying there was a problem but never received a reply.


 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
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How to get the free Stater Plan? Apr 26, 2016

After I had set up my profile page, I clicked on "Upgrade" to the left of "Basic Plan" and I was taken to this page: https://www.tm-town.com/membership-pricing. To continue, I had to click on "pur... See more
After I had set up my profile page, I clicked on "Upgrade" to the left of "Basic Plan" and I was taken to this page: https://www.tm-town.com/membership-pricing. To continue, I had to click on "purchase" under Stater Plan. On this page https://www.tm-town.com/subscriptions/new?plan=starter, I only saw the payment options and the page contains no information about how a Proz member can the starter plan for free.

Can you explain? Thanks!
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Jared Tabor
Jared Tabor
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Make sure your TM-Town profile is linked with your ProZ.com account Apr 26, 2016

Hi jyuan_us,

If you have already loaded a qualifying document on TM-Town, make sure your TM-Town profile is linked to your ProZ.com account. This is how TM-Town detects your ProZ.com membership, and it will also give potential clients a way to easily check out items in your ProZ.com profile like your WWA feedback, portfolio, etc. To li
... See more
Hi jyuan_us,

If you have already loaded a qualifying document on TM-Town, make sure your TM-Town profile is linked to your ProZ.com account. This is how TM-Town detects your ProZ.com membership, and it will also give potential clients a way to easily check out items in your ProZ.com profile like your WWA feedback, portfolio, etc. To link your ProZ.com profile, just go to https://www.tm-town.com/translators/edit and at the bottom you will see a section for "Blogs, Social Media & Translator Profiles". Click on that section to add your ProZ.com profile, and you're done. Your Starter membership should be activated automatically an hour or so after that.

Jared
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Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI
Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI  Identity Verified
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well Apr 26, 2016

Kevin Dias wrote:
Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI wrote:
b) that TM Town privileges (by better ranking) such use (sharing of aligned TUs) over less risky option (Deshi)


Wrong. Not sure where you got that from. Loading a TM directly to TM-Town or loading a Deshi file of the TM has the exact same effect (both in one's ranking in the traditional directory and in Nakōdo).

I got that right from the TM Town website - https://www.tm-town.com/faq

Question: "Why am I appearing below other translators in the TM-Town directory even though I have more translation units?"

Answer: "TM-Town's directory rankings are not based purely on any one metric. Translators who have loaded aligned work (i.e. a TM or glossary) in a specific language pair will rank over translators who have only loaded monolingual documents or have not loaded work in that specific language pair."

Wrong, you say. OK. That means TM Town website is lying.

Which one is it?

It is both. At first I was responding in the context of what ProZ itself actively promotes. (The topic is not "Confidentiality of our work", but "TM Town ... for P.)
After you made a comparison to other third parties, I explained the material difference (client's approval/consent) in case of e-mail usage.

That said, I'm still curious to know how the confidentiality issue itself / conflict of ProZ x TMT principles can be resolved.


 
Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI
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risks Apr 26, 2016

Michael, I'm aware of Deshi but I think referring only to it is kind of relativizing the overall confidentiality risk related to TM Town.

Yes, Deshi is there and can mitigate some issues. But it is not the only available TM Town method.

Either way, it would be interesting to know how many words (percentage) were imported as complete TUs, and how many as Deshi-processed "termbases".


 
Michael Beijer
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Tomas, you are misunderstanding the text Apr 26, 2016

Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI wrote:

Question: "Why am I appearing below other translators in the TM-Town directory even though I have more translation units?"

Answer: "TM-Town's directory rankings are not based purely on any one metric. Translators who have loaded aligned work (i.e. a TM or glossary) in a specific language pair will rank over translators who have only loaded monolingual documents or have not loaded work in that specific language pair."


Wrong, you say. OK. That means TM Town website is lying.


All this means is translators who upload bilingual data will rank higher than those who upload only monolingual data. Of course they will. That's the whole point of the system.

Maybe this will help:

Answer: "TM-Town's directory rankings are not based purely on any one metric. Translators who have loaded aligned work (i.e. a TM or glossary, or Deshi-generated .town file) in a specific language pair will rank over translators who have only loaded monolingual documents or have not loaded work in that specific language pair."


Is it clear now?

Michael

[Edited at 2016-04-26 18:44 GMT]


 
Michael Beijer
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if you don't like it, don't use it. problem solved Apr 26, 2016

Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI wrote:

Michael, I'm aware of Deshi but I think referring only to it is kind of relativizing the overall confidentiality risk related to TM Town.

Yes, Deshi is there and can mitigate some issues. But it is not the only available TM Town method.

Either way, it would be interesting to know how many words (percentage) were imported as complete TUs, and how many as Deshi-processed "termbases".


If you use only Deshi, the "overall confidentiality risk related to TM Town" is zero. If you simply upload your TMs the other way, the confidentiality risk is equal to using email. Hell, using the internet and a computer are potential confidentiality risks. So is leaving your house.

Please also note that Kevin added Deshi later on in the game, as a result of people (just like you) coming to him with confidentiality concerns. That is, he is trying to tailor his system to the needs and wishes of his users, which is great, if you ask me, and shows that he is very aware of the potential problems.

Michael


 
Eckart Jurk
Eckart Jurk
Germany
Local time: 00:18
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Dutch to German
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Zustimmung Apr 26, 2016

Carmen Pralow wrote:

Es ist schade, dass dieses Angebot nur in Englisch bekannt gemacht wird. Ich denke, ich bin nicht die Einzige, die kein Englisch spricht und daher außen vor ist.


Dem kann ich nur zustimmen.Obwohl ich des Englischen durchaus einigermaßen mächtig bin, ist mir nicht alles so klar, dass mich dieses Angebot überzeugen könnte. Ja, schade!


 
Robert Rietvelt
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Answer given Apr 26, 2016

echojuliett wrote:

Carmen Pralow wrote:

Es ist schade, dass dieses Angebot nur in Englisch bekannt gemacht wird. Ich denke, ich bin nicht die Einzige, die kein Englisch spricht und daher außen vor ist.


Dem kann ich nur zustimmen.Obwohl ich des Englischen durchaus einigermaßen mächtig bin, ist mir nicht alles so klar, dass mich dieses Angebot überzeugen könnte. Ja, schade!


Hallo Echo,

Ik heb Carmen vertelt dat ik Kevin dat al namens onze niet-Engels sprekende collega's heb gevraagd. Hij heeft mij toegezegd dat de site wordt vertaald in andere talen, hij heeft echter niet gezegd wanneer.

Rob


 
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..... (X)
Local time: 08:18
Answers Apr 26, 2016

Krys Williams wrote:

I wanted to see what this is all about, followed the link in the original email I received from Proz, but was not allowed to enter via my Proz membership. I kept getting some error message about the data being invalid or something.

I replied to the original email saying there was a problem but never received a reply.


Hi Krys,

Can you try registering with a username and password (instead of the 'Sign in With ProZ.com' button). Then, once your account is created you can link your ProZ.com account from the account settings page.

If you still have trouble after trying the above please email me.

----------

Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:

Tomas, you are misunderstanding the text

Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI wrote:

Question: "Why am I appearing below other translators in the TM-Town directory even though I have more translation units?"

Answer: "TM-Town's directory rankings are not based purely on any one metric. Translators who have loaded aligned work (i.e. a TM or glossary) in a specific language pair will rank over translators who have only loaded monolingual documents or have not loaded work in that specific language pair."


Wrong, you say. OK. That means TM Town website is lying.


All this means is translators who upload bilingual data will rank higher than those who upload only monolingual data. Of course they will. That's the whole point of the system.

Maybe this will help:


Answer: "TM-Town's directory rankings are not based purely on any one metric. Translators who have loaded aligned work (i.e. a TM or glossary, or Deshi-generated .town file) in a specific language pair will rank over translators who have only loaded monolingual documents or have not loaded work in that specific language pair."

Is it clear now?

Michael


Yes, Michael's interpretation is correct. Sorry that the wording of that FAQ was confusing. It was written before we released Deshi. I have updated it to include Michael's suggested wording change.

Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI wrote:

It is both. At first I was responding in the context of what ProZ itself actively promotes. (The topic is not "Confidentiality of our work", but "TM Town ... for P.)
After you made a comparison to other third parties, I explained the material difference (client's approval/consent) in case of e-mail usage.

That said, I'm still curious to know how the confidentiality issue itself / conflict of ProZ x TMT principles can be resolved.


Ok, so in your view 100% of the content of a translation (both source and target text) is confidential and shall not be shared with a 3rd party, with the only exception being email if the client has implicitly or explicitly consented to that. Fair enough. Then it follows that you can not do things such as:
- Search a term in KudoZ, Linguee, or even enter the term into the search bar of Google
- Ask a question on KudoZ related to a term from a translation
- Use a CAT tool that has any sort of connectivity to the Internet (MT plugin, productivity plugin, etc.)

No problem then, I'm sure you do your translation in a word processor and use a paper dictionary.

Except...I clicked through to your profile and it appears you have asked 75 KudoZ questions. Unless all of those questions were 100% unrelated to your actual translation work and just for your own curiosity, it would appear that your actions don't follow your stated principles.

Here's my take:

For the majority of translation jobs that translators do on a daily basis, 100% of the translation IS NOT confidential (of course there could be exceptions such as government jobs, medical records, etc.).

A typical NDA states that you are not to disclose any Confidential Information. With Confidential Information being a legal defined term in the document, which as a translator signing that document you should have a good idea of what it means. If you don't, you should seek clarity from the client before signing the NDA.

Therefore, as you know what information is confidential, you can redact said Confidential Information when using Deshi. Sending a .town file to TM-Town will thus not be violating your NDA, as you will not be disclosing any Confidential Information.

[Edited at 2016-04-26 22:05 GMT]


 
Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI
Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI  Identity Verified
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yes Apr 26, 2016

Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
All this means is translators who upload bilingual data will rank higher than those who upload only monolingual data. Of course they will. That's the whole point of the system.

I said the very same thing about ranking, so I'm not sure what exactly are you objecting to. :) But Kevin wrote:
"Loading a TM directly to TM-Town or loading a Deshi file of the TM has the exact same effect (both in one's ranking in the traditional directory and in Nakōdo)."

Either aligned work gives better ranking in the TM Town directory (as you, TM Town FAQ and me say), or not (as Kevin says). It cannot be both.

If you use only Deshi, the "overall confidentiality risk related to TM Town" is zero.

Well, I wrote that I'm aware of Deshi and that it can mitigate some issues. Can we skip the Deshi loop now?

If you simply upload your TMs the other way, the confidentiality risk is equal to using email.

As I already explained, there is a substantial difference in that the client tacitly or otherwise approves the use of e-mail. (The client obviously wants the translation, but he has no interest in his project being "copied" via third parties more than what is required for a safe delivery.)

If some method is approved then it is fair & reasonable to use it, compared to when a translator does something without client's consent. (So would be different, I imagine, the responsibility for any potential confidentiality breach.)

If for you the only acceptable method of showing disagreement with a product is not to use it, I respect that, but perhaps you could also respect that others are free to use other methods to voice their concerns. It is not a matter of me liking something or not, but how ProZ promotes something to members that at the same may lead to confidentiality issues.

Besides, the advice "do not use it" doesn't change a thing about the perceived conflict, or say opened door to it, with ProZ principles; TM Town is able to load any TUs no matter if I personally use it or not.

Hell, using the internet and a computer are potential confidentiality risks. So is leaving your house.

Apples and oranges.


 
Michael Beijer
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Dutch to English
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I really have no idea what you mean anymore (see bold). Apr 26, 2016

Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI wrote:

Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
All this means is translators who upload bilingual data will rank higher than those who upload only monolingual data. Of course they will. That's the whole point of the system.

I said the very same thing about ranking, so I'm not sure what exactly are you objecting to. :) But Kevin wrote:
"Loading a TM directly to TM-Town or loading a Deshi file of the TM has the exact same effect (both in one's ranking in the traditional directory and in Nakōdo)."

Either aligned work gives better ranking in the TM Town directory (as you, TM Town FAQ and me say), or not (as Kevin says). It cannot be both.


As far as I can make out, both Kevin and I are on exactly the same page, but you seem to be misunderstanding something here, although I can no longer put my finger on what this might actually be.

Signing off for the night; maybe someone else will be able to figure out what is going wrong here.

MJWB

[Edited at 2016-04-26 22:08 GMT]


 
Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI
Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI  Identity Verified
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ranking Apr 27, 2016

Sorry that the wording of that FAQ was confusing. It was written before we released Deshi. I have updated it to include Michael's suggested wording change.

OK, but how does .town file get "aligned"? In the Deshi sample video on your website, there is only a monolingual collection of words. How it gets linked to the source or target language? How are the adequate/correct counterparts (words) in the other language selected? Or if "aligned" here means something else, then what is it?

Ok, so in your view...

Oh, so when there is no argument to rebut the concerns themselves, let's try to shoot the troublesome messenger? It is quite eye-opening to see such dubious tricks in what is supposedly a professional forum. (I don't recall addressing any of your personal practices.)

Anyway, to put to rest your unbecoming remarks and implications:
Then it follows that you can not do things such as:
- Search a term in KudoZ, Linguee, or even enter the term into the search bar of Google
- Ask a question on KudoZ related to a term from a translation

You correctly say "term". With KudoZ or Google search, unlike with TM Town, I'm not sending the whole material (bilingual, monolingual or TM) anywhere, just random, short and non-specific pieces. Besides, you don't know if and which projects were confidential (which I assume by default) or where the client actually on their own suggested to "search the Internet for references" etc.

Use a CAT tool that has any sort of connectivity to the Internet (MT plugin, productivity plugin, etc.)

I do use CAT tools with connectivity (e.g. to verify the license or access the project/TM). But, surprise surprise, plugins and CAT tools with connectivity are two different things. I have plugins disabled.

Either way, no matter how you try to "hide" the raised issues by pointing at participants (or even if I decided somehow, after getting lunatic first, to upload all my translations into public domain), it will not make TM Town less open to loading of TU sets, it will not terminate the ProZ guidelines and, most importantly, it will not eliminate the potential conflict between the two aspects.

(Just to make myself clear, I don't care so much about TM Town on its own as about the ProZ relation to it - if ProZ was not promoting it, or if ProZ was not endorsing any specific guidelines, I likely wouldn't be discussing it here now.)

Therefore, as you know what infomartion is confidential, you can redact said Confidential Information when using Deshi. Sending a .town file to TM-Town will thus not be violating your NDA, as you will not be disclosing any Confidential Information.

Again, I'm not sure why all the talk about Deshi only.

As I understand it, TM Town uses three main inputs:
1) Bilingual translations or TMs;
2) Standalone terms - Deshi;
3) Predefined sample translations.

I'm not so much concerned about 2) and 3).

But TM Town also allows loading of full TUs / TMs (and this is promoted more than Deshi).

That is the real problem I see there - the door to potential, even if unintended or unconscious, confidentiality violation; which, if nothing else, would then be in conflict with ProZ guidelines.

Now, back to the cave. Where is my torch?


 
..... (X)
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@Tomas Apr 27, 2016

Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI wrote:

OK, but how does .town file get "aligned"? In the Deshi sample video on your website, there is only a monolingual collection of words. How it gets linked to the source or target language? How are the adequate/correct counterparts (words) in the other language selected? Or if "aligned" here means something else, then what is it?


The Deshi .town file is created from an aligned TM file. That is the meaning here.

Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI wrote:

unlike with TM Town, I'm not sending the whole material (bilingual, monolingual or TM) anywhere


This is the point you seem to be missing. You do not have to send the "whole material" anywhere with TM-Town. You can send a synopsis file created by Deshi which does not include any full segments or any aligned segment data.

Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI wrote:

But TM Town also allows loading of full TUs / TMs


Yes, we do. First of all, not all TMs fall under a NDA or confidentiality agreement. Secondly, we have many tools for translators wherein they can privately leverage their own work (or public work) if they so choose. For example, a translator could upload a public DGT TM file, mark it as 'For Reference Only', and then search those segments through our browser search feature or through one of our CAT tool extensions.

We make it pretty simple. If you do not have any work that you can load, you can:
a) try Deshi
b) load a sample translation
c) load nothing and just have a profile


 
Tomas Mosler, DipTrans IoLET MCIL MITI
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Deshi Apr 27, 2016

Michael J.W. Beijer wrote:
I really have no idea what you mean anymore

TM Town FAQ April 25: "TM-Town's directory rankings are not based purely on any one metric. Translators who have loaded aligned work (i.e. a TM or glossary) in a specific language pair will rank over translators who have only loaded monolingual documents or have not loaded work in that specific language pair."

(No reference to Deshi, and Deshi demo video seems to use a monolingual termbase.)

I wrote: "TM Town privileges (by better ranking) such use (sharing of aligned TUs) over less risky option (Deshi)."

Kevin wrote: "Loading a TM directly to TM-Town or loading a Deshi file of the TM has the exact same effect."

You wrote: "All this means is translators who upload bilingual data will rank higher than those who upload only monolingual data. Of course they will. That's the whole point of the system."

I wrote: "I said the very same thing about ranking."

(At that point I still understood - or misunderstood - that Deshi is monolingual.)

TM Town FAQ April 26: "TM-Town's directory rankings are not based purely on any one metric. Translators who have loaded aligned work (i.e. a TM, glossary, or Deshi-generated .town file) in a specific language pair will rank over translators who have only loaded monolingual documents or have not loaded work in that specific language pair."

That indeed puts Deshi on par with other inputs. But I'm still curious to know how Deshi produces aligned bilingual input; I'm not saying that it doesn't or cannot do it, it is only not clear from the demo video where the .town file at 1:09, opened in a text editor, contains only English words - where is Spanish? And if both languages are uploaded, shouldn't "Jörg" be redacted also in the other language? Or is this demo for a monolingual version of Deshi (if Deshi is not strictly bilingual)?


 
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