Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3 4 5 6] >
We need a whole new paradigm
Thread poster: Daniel Frisano
Mario Chavez (X)
Mario Chavez (X)  Identity Verified
Local time: 16:54
English to Spanish
+ ...
Not so fast Dec 28, 2017

Angie Garbarino wrote:

Tom in London wrote:


"Have a nice day" is a really annoying, presumptuous, arrogant, and now very dated American expression.


I did not know it sounds arrogant and presumptuous, thanks for informing

Happy New Year!


It's not a dated expression. I'm American and we use “Have a nice day.” But tone, voice inflection and other aspects play a role to make this greeting sound friendly, overbearing or unwelcome. Just like many other expressions in the American English language.

That being said, I wouldn't recommend using it as a closing greeting on an email or letter because of the risk of misunderstandings.


 
Mario Chavez (X)
Mario Chavez (X)  Identity Verified
Local time: 16:54
English to Spanish
+ ...
Different ways of addressing people in different cultures Dec 28, 2017

Lincoln Hui wrote:

7. Enough with first-name basis right from the start. It’s Mr. (or Ms., or Mrs.), if you don’t mind.

Setting aside the fact that this is a fairly common practice in the US, or the fact that not all translators choose to reveal their gender...

An agency that does this is inviting a lawsuit. Not that I think it's right, but if I were running an agency, I would expressly forbid the use of gender honorifics in communications by my project managers. So if you are uncomfortable with being addressed by first name, the only option would be by full name, i.e. "Dear Daniel Frisano", which is downright demeaning in many cultures.

Also, I don't trust people to tell where the given name or surname starts and ends. My blood pressure rises a bit every time I see something addressed to "Dear Lik".


Unless I know the client personally or by phone and we have built a sensible rapport to warrant talking to each other on a first-name basis, the appropriate usage in English is “Dear Mr/Ms Jones (or García or Aslanian.)” I don't think there's any need for forbidding the use of gender-based honorifics, I see nothing demeaning or disrespectful about it. People from cultures outside the Western sphere of influence, especially professionals, could make things easier by signing on their correspondence with their customary way of being addressed, whether it's Ms. Kumiko Suzuki or Mr. Kazuo Tasheda, for instance. We can't expect people outside of our culture or country to know who they're talking to, and for us Westerners it is good manners to know the gender of the person we're addressing. It is not sexism or any kind of discrimination.

I'm also aware that Chinese people write their names in the reverse as we Westerners write ours. For instance, if I were a Chinese national and my name were Mario Esquivel, I would sign as “Esquivel Mario” because that would go in accordance with Chinese usage.


 
Lincoln Hui
Lincoln Hui  Identity Verified
Hong Kong
Local time: 04:54
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
Response Dec 28, 2017

Mario Chavez wrote:

I don't think there's any need for forbidding the use of gender-based honorifics, I see nothing demeaning or disrespectful about it.

The fact that YOU don't see anything wrong with it does not mitigate the agency's legal risk.

People from cultures outside the Western sphere of influence, especially professionals, could make things easier by signing on their correspondence with their customary way of being addressed, whether it's Ms. Kumiko Suzuki or Mr. Kazuo Tasheda, for instance. We can't expect people outside of our culture or country to know who they're talking to, and for us Westerners it is good manners to know the gender of the person we're addressing. It is not sexism or any kind of discrimination.

7. Enough with first-name basis right from the start. It’s Mr. (or Ms., or Mrs.), if you don’t mind.

Say you're looking for a translator through the directory. You're writing to a translator that you've never met by the name of, say, Leslie Johnson, and they didn't put their photo on their profile. Are you going to write to Mr. Johnson or Ms. Johnson? Getting someone's gender wrong from the start seems like a great way to initiate communications, don't you think?

Japanese honorifics are gender neutral, by the way. And self-signing as "Mr" or "Ms" is a great way to make yourself look like a clown.

For instance, if I were a Chinese national and my name were Mario Esquivel, I would sign as “Esquivel Mario” because that would go in accordance with Chinese usage.

I'm not convinced that's a good idea. I would see it as a hamfisted attempt at so-called cultural sensitivity.

[Edited at 2017-12-28 05:56 GMT]


 
mariealpilles
mariealpilles  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 21:54
Member (2014)
English to French
+ ...
New paradigm needed Dec 28, 2017

Congratulations to Daniel Frisano. I have said that all along. The one performing the job can work with whatever tool he/she chooses - who would dare tell any other worker to use a specific tool? Let the Professional perform the job and deliver quality documents - that is all that matters. If the translator works during the night, or chooses to start later on a job, it is not the agency's or client's business - what is important is that the translator meets the deadlines.

All those
... See more
Congratulations to Daniel Frisano. I have said that all along. The one performing the job can work with whatever tool he/she chooses - who would dare tell any other worker to use a specific tool? Let the Professional perform the job and deliver quality documents - that is all that matters. If the translator works during the night, or chooses to start later on a job, it is not the agency's or client's business - what is important is that the translator meets the deadlines.

All those demands are in fact just for the agency's comfort. I have never been asked by my serious clients (including agencies) to use this or that CAT tool, or even to use one and I have noticed that those insisting you make use of CAT Tools send you documents which are not good quality and usually do not understand anything about the job, CAT tool being no more than a buzz word they believe sounds Professional, while I think (it is my personal opinion) does not at all show professionalism and cannot be used with any type of documents.
Collapse


 
Mervyn Henderson (X)
Mervyn Henderson (X)  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 21:54
Spanish to English
+ ...
What about ... Dec 28, 2017

... "Have a great day"? Or "Have yourself a cracker of a day"?

It's more the "nice" in "Have a nice day" that bothers me. Nice is certainly overused. It seems people can't think of anything better to say: We had a nice time. He's a nice man. It's a nice day. Oh, that's so nice of you ..... etc.

In other words, I reckon nice isn't very nice.


 
Daniel Frisano
Daniel Frisano  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 21:54
Member (2008)
English to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
@marie Dec 28, 2017

I still remember your post on this forum: https://www.proz.com/forum/french/320749-répétions.html

This is exactly what we need.


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:54
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Leave my day alone Dec 28, 2017

Mervyn Henderson wrote:

... "Have a great day"? Or "Have yourself a cracker of a day"?

It's more the "nice" in "Have a nice day" that bothers me. Nice is certainly overused. It seems people can't think of anything better to say: We had a nice time. He's a nice man. It's a nice day. Oh, that's so nice of you ..... etc.

In other words, I reckon nice isn't very nice.



The exhortation (by some Americans but, fortunately, not all) to "have a nice day" is a gross violation of the other person's privacy. In Italian it would be the equivalent of something like "permettersi confidenza": impertinently pushing oneself into the confidence of another person and presuming to influence the remainder of the other person's day. That's why it is intolerable.

If anyone ever says "have a nice day", the best response (suggested to me by an American) is "thank you, but I have other plans".

[Edited at 2017-12-28 09:27 GMT]


 
Mervyn Henderson (X)
Mervyn Henderson (X)  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 21:54
Spanish to English
+ ...
Looks like ... Dec 28, 2017

... you're bent on not having a nice day! Try and have a vaguely bearable 24 hours at least, then.

 
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 17:54
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
The current paradigm separates amateurs from professionals Dec 28, 2017

Daniel Frisano wrote:
I don’t know about you, but personally, I’ve had it with clients forcing me to use certain tools or doing things their way, and it’s happening more and more.


Me too. I seldom get to work with clients forcing their way; when I do, it is usually a one-night-stand.
As I have been translating professionally for over four decades, the last three of them as a freelancer, it's quite likely that my way of doing business is the original concept, from the days it wasn't just about making a wad of money easily.

My hope was that machine translation would evolve sufficiently to efface from the marketplace 'amateurs' - both agencies and translators - whose ONLY goals are to get it done and to do it as cheaply as possible, regardless of ANYthing else such as quality.

That failed to happen. Bottom-feeders feel an urge to have someone they can BLAME for the poor quality they get at despicable rates, and they can't blame software nor a free online service.

Daniel Frisano wrote:
1. No requiring any specific CAT tools.


Amateur translation agencies have fallen into the trap of believing that one specific CAT tool brand (viz. SDL Trados - I don't see it happening with other CAT tools) will completely offset a translator's lack of competence or knowledge. These amateur agencies demand this specific CAT tool as the one-and-only requirement, anything else being optional. Just browse the Proz job board as a whole, and this will become obvious. IMHO if Proz didn't demand it, they'd often omit the language pair(s) involved.

Daniel Frisano wrote:
2. No working on the cloud, remote servers, etc.


This is relative. In any case, the client should be fully accountable for the operation on the cloud. Two cases...

CASE A: MemoQ on the cloud; client in Florida, USA; server in Toronto. A snowstorm caused a power outage in Canada, the server UPS batteries ran down. In two hours, while keeping the translators team updated via Skype, the client rented a truck-mounted generator to get service up and running, and to transfer the entire server to Los Angeles.

CASE B: Memsource on the cloud, client in Europe, server in the UK. I tested it on a Saturday afternoon, speed was okay. When I began working on their job on Monday, service was SO disparagingly slow, that it was the ONLY job I ever delivered late in 40+ years. Anyway, they took the full blame for it. I have been working offline for them since.

Daniel Frisano wrote:
3. No using clients’ platforms for job management or accounting.


Definitely! ... and especially when they require you to be permanently logged on their system, as if you were their employee... not during business hours, but on 24/7 standby.

The smart way - and I don't recall having seen it - would be the client having an online system where each translator would find a summarized list of the jobs assigned to him/her, with dates, deadlines, delivery acknowledgment. Each item would have a button "upload invoice", which would enable the translator to send his/her own invoice (including the required information) for that job in a way that the client could easily find it and associate it to the corresponding job.

Daniel Frisano wrote:
4. No signing 12-page Terms and Conditions, NDAs, etc.


The professional way is to have a summary of the T&C agreed somewhere.

The amateur way is to demand such documents, and take the chance to include a bunch of leonine/draconian clauses. The image I get is their lawyer saying, "If you get every translator to sign this, I can nail them down any time you want, and for as much as you want, slam dunk! If they convince you to change one iota in there, get another lawyer, as it will be an uphill battle."

Amateur translation agencies think that their ability to make a profit is directly linked to the possibility of scamming their vendors.

Daniel Frisano wrote:
5. No tests.


Tests are an expression of a translation agency's gullibility and foolishness. It's a great activity trap, though... "What did we accomplish today? No new jobs in, no finished jobs out. However we received and got 17 translator tests, passed 9, and failed 8 of them. However reading the e-mails from 4 of those we passed, I suspect someone else took the test for them."

Daniel Frisano wrote:
6. Enough with calling ourselves “freelancers”. Is a lawyer a freelancer?


Those who accept client-imposed T&C&rates are freelancers. Those who have and uphold their own are "independent service providers".

Daniel Frisano wrote:
7. Enough with first-name basis right from the start. It’s Mr. (or Ms., or Mrs.), if you don’t mind.


Not sure, as this is a cultural issue. I don't mind.
When my client is a translation agency, supposedly the PM and I will be on the same side, pushing in the same direction.

Daniel Frisano wrote:
Feel free to add yours.



8. Negotiable payment terms.

I've seen some translation agencies that live solely on the cash flow generated by getting paid by the end-client in advance, or at worst COD. Then they pay translators a number of months later... with the money from the NEXT job. If demand declines, they'll default, stall, or otherwise try to maneuver their vendors into believing that they must bow and accept.

As interest rates vary from one country to another, part of the capital investment in a translation agency should be directed to getting the best financial profit too. If the agency is located in a low-interest country, they can make a bundle by paying ASAP all translators located in higher interest countries. To illustrate, an agency located in the USA would take YEARS to offset the one-month interest of a loan in Brazil or Argentina (plus some other countries).


9. No references required

Some translation clients demand contact details for 2-3 references. Quite often, this is used to spam these references forever, offering "Whatever this jerk does for you, we can do it better, faster, and cheaper!" Others will send arm-length questionnaires, which will have the same use as the tests under #5, on top of being a real nuisance to respondents.

First, the translator won't be working at the client's premises, so there will be no risk of pilferage, stolen silverware, etc. Secondly, it would be VERY easy to get in cahoots with a few fellow translators who own an individual translation firm for tax purposes, and ask them to praise me beyond belief.


 
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 17:54
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
OFF TOPIC: Have a nice day! Dec 28, 2017

Tom in London wrote:

I would add: please never say "have a nice day". I am not in California and it isn't 1986. Even then it was annoying.


It was annoying in California in 1975 already, on my first trip there.

I always felt it as a matter of what it stands for.

I don't speak German. However I was impressed when I visited a German-culture region of Brazil and, at the restaurant, I saw everyone that arrived, as they crossed the room to their table, repeatedly saying "Mahlzeit!" (= Mealtime in EN) to complete strangers sitting on all tables along the way.

A friend of mine, whose parents were German, and who taught him the language, explained to me that it was the last word from a phrase meaning "May the Lord give a long and enjoyable life to all those who partake of this mealtime." Indeed, if they took the time to say the whole phrase as many times as they said "Mahlzeit" to all those strangers, their food would get cold, or rot!

So what's the underlying meaning I see in the parrot-like uttered "Have a nice day!" at the end of any business transaction?

I "read" it as "If you are done here, please step out! As you are growing older every minute you stay here, if time comes for you to drop dead, please do so outside my store/restaurant/whatever. The reason is that if you drop dead in here, Police will seal this joint as a possible crime scene, and I'll be losing a lot of business. Now scram!"


 
Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 21:54
French to English
"sounds" or "is" Dec 28, 2017

Angie Garbarino wrote:

Tom in London wrote:


"Have a nice day" is a really annoying, presumptuous, arrogant, and now very dated American expression.


I did not know it sounds arrogant and presumptuous, thanks for informing

Happy New Year!


I think Tom means that to him, it sounds annoying etc.

I don't find it annoying, arrogant presumptuous or even dated in the least. I don't like being accosted by sales staff as I enter a store, I prefer them to leave me alone unless I approach one for help. But someone ending our translation by wishing me a good day, or merry whatever or happy however, is just fine, it ends the script and I'm free to respond in kind if I'm feeling generous, or just skulk off. I usually wish them "bon courage" to finish their shift and hope they enjoy the rest of their day after clocking off. They tend to like me acknowledging their human presence. Those who don't like being wished something happy or good can always go to the self checkout, where the machines are unfailingly polite and pleasant even to the grumpiest of customers.


 
Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 21:54
French to English
LOL Dec 28, 2017

José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:

Tom in London wrote:

I would add: please never say "have a nice day". I am not in California and it isn't 1986. Even then it was annoying.


It was annoying in California in 1975 already, on my first trip there.

I always felt it as a matter of what it stands for.

I don't speak German. However I was impressed when I visited a German-culture region of Brazil and, at the restaurant, I saw everyone that arrived, as they crossed the room to their table, repeatedly saying "Mahlzeit!" (= Mealtime in EN) to complete strangers sitting on all tables along the way.

A friend of mine, whose parents were German, and who taught him the language, explained to me that it was the last word from a phrase meaning "May the Lord give a long and enjoyable life to all those who partake of this mealtime." Indeed, if they took the time to say the whole phrase as many times as they said "Mahlzeit" to all those strangers, their food would get cold, or rot!

So what's the underlying meaning I see in the parrot-like uttered "Have a nice day!" at the end of any business transaction?

I "read" it as "If you are done here, please step out! As you are growing older every minute you stay here, if time comes for you to drop dead, please do so outside my store/restaurant/whatever. The reason is that if you drop dead in here, Police will seal this joint as a possible crime scene, and I'll be losing a lot of business. Now scram!"

LOL for this!
Anything that employees say automatically can come across as not as polite or friendly as it should be.
I think it's important to remember that these people are doing a really tough job, being repetitive yet in contact with the public, a lot of whom enjoy bullying those in a weaker position to them. They get bullied and insulted and screamed at all day mostly for stuff that isn't their fault, and they're on minimum wage mostly, often part-time too.
So I forgive them for sometimes sounding like they're on automatic pilot and try to treat them as decent human beings. There's a cashier at my local grocery who's always cheerful, I gave her a box of chocolates at Christmas and she burst into tears. Nobody had ever given her a present at work.


 
Mario Chavez (X)
Mario Chavez (X)  Identity Verified
Local time: 16:54
English to Spanish
+ ...
No such attempt Dec 28, 2017

Lincoln Hui wrote:

Mario Chavez wrote:

I don't think there's any need for forbidding the use of gender-based honorifics, I see nothing demeaning or disrespectful about it.

The fact that YOU don't see anything wrong with it does not mitigate the agency's legal risk.

People from cultures outside the Western sphere of influence, especially professionals, could make things easier by signing on their correspondence with their customary way of being addressed, whether it's Ms. Kumiko Suzuki or Mr. Kazuo Tasheda, for instance. We can't expect people outside of our culture or country to know who they're talking to, and for us Westerners it is good manners to know the gender of the person we're addressing. It is not sexism or any kind of discrimination.

7. Enough with first-name basis right from the start. It’s Mr. (or Ms., or Mrs.), if you don’t mind.

Say you're looking for a translator through the directory. You're writing to a translator that you've never met by the name of, say, Leslie Johnson, and they didn't put their photo on their profile. Are you going to write to Mr. Johnson or Ms. Johnson? Getting someone's gender wrong from the start seems like a great way to initiate communications, don't you think?

Japanese honorifics are gender neutral, by the way. And self-signing as "Mr" or "Ms" is a great way to make yourself look like a clown.

For instance, if I were a Chinese national and my name were Mario Esquivel, I would sign as “Esquivel Mario” because that would go in accordance with Chinese usage.

I'm not convinced that's a good idea. I would see it as a hamfisted attempt at so-called cultural sensitivity.

[Edited at 2017-12-28 05:56 GMT]


Here's a thought: Japanese translators addressing someone outside Japan. No risk of looking like a clown. In Japan, honorifics may be gender neutral, but other countries, especially in the Western world, use gender markers to address someone. Agencies don't run a risk of litigation like they'd do in Japan. If you ever lived outside of Japan, you'd know that by now.


 
Robert Forstag
Robert Forstag  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 16:54
Spanish to English
+ ...
I don't have a problem with it either Dec 28, 2017

Texte Style wrote:

Angie Garbarino wrote:

Tom in London wrote:


"Have a nice day" is a really annoying, presumptuous, arrogant, and now very dated American expression.


I did not know it sounds arrogant and presumptuous, thanks for informing

Happy New Year!


I think Tom means that to him, it sounds annoying etc.

I don't find it annoying, arrogant presumptuous or even dated in the least. I don't like being accosted by sales staff as I enter a store, I prefer them to leave me alone unless I approach one for help. But someone ending our translation by wishing me a good day, or merry whatever or happy however, is just fine, it ends the script and I'm free to respond in kind if I'm feeling generous, or just skulk off. I usually wish them "bon courage" to finish their shift and hope they enjoy the rest of their day after clocking off. They tend to like me acknowledging their human presence. Those who don't like being wished something happy or good can always go to the self checkout, where the machines are unfailingly polite and pleasant even to the grumpiest of customers.


I really don't find "Have a nice day" the least bit annoying, whether spoken or in writing. I also use it myself.

In any event, the topic of this thread has now been hopelessly hijacked. It really would have been better to start a new thread titled "Pet peeves that I just can't seem to stop talking about," or similar.


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:54
Member (2008)
Italian to English
All threads Dec 28, 2017

Robert Forstag wrote:

....the topic of this thread has now been hopelessly hijacked....


It is an unwritten but universally observed rule of these forums that by the end of the second page, they must have gone completely off-topic.


 
Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3 4 5 6] >


To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator:


You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request »

We need a whole new paradigm







Anycount & Translation Office 3000
Translation Office 3000

Translation Office 3000 is an advanced accounting tool for freelance translators and small agencies. TO3000 easily and seamlessly integrates with the business life of professional freelance translators.

More info »
TM-Town
Manage your TMs and Terms ... and boost your translation business

Are you ready for something fresh in the industry? TM-Town is a unique new site for you -- the freelance translator -- to store, manage and share translation memories (TMs) and glossaries...and potentially meet new clients on the basis of your prior work.

More info »