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Poor Non-Native Speaker Answers to Terminology Questions
Thread poster: DCForTransla (X)
Balasubramaniam L.
Balasubramaniam L.  Identity Verified
India
Local time: 01:50
Member (2006)
English to Hindi
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They play a subtle game Apr 26, 2016

The Misha wrote:
It has always puzzled me why some are so eager to shoot themselves in the foot by putting evidence of their utter professional incompetence in the limelight, for the entire world to see.


You are missing the point. They actually bank on their kudoz answers not being scrutinized meticulously for quality. Instead they put their bets on the casual visitors to this site, many of whom would be potential outsourcers, who just skim through the site and just note the general flurry of activity in it. These prolific kudoz posters almost always get noticed by these visitors due to the sheer number and frequency of their posts and answers. And that all that they desire.

Also, we humans have a very short memory for details, but the overall impressions of an experience witnessed by us remain with us for a long time. So the stupid or downright hilarious answers by a poster may titillate us for a few days, but after a few weeks or months, all that would remain in our memory would be the name and language pairs of the person who provided us with this laugh. And that is precisely what the person would want us to remember.

That is how their strategy works - flood the site with answers as that would at least make them visible on the site, and bank on their answers not being carefully evaluated for quality.

As it is, most of us are hard pressed for time, and those of us who do evaluate quality, very quickly learn who are the genuine posters and who are the frauds, and mentally blacklist the latter and simply give the Nelson's eye to their posts and answers. This again benefits them as we then simply un-see (to coin a new term) the poor quality of their answers and only see their name and language pairs, which are precisely the information that they want us to see any way.

[Edited at 2016-04-26 01:49 GMT]


 
Balasubramaniam L.
Balasubramaniam L.  Identity Verified
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Best solution Apr 26, 2016

Dan Lucas wrote:

Laurence Fogarty wrote:
on the other there is the problem of someone asking an unlimited amount of terms, making a mockery of their claim to be a translator

This was exactly my finding and why I also no longer participate in KudoZ.

You have people who are unfit to be doing the work they're doing, yet competent people are encouraged to help them through KudoZ, so that these incompetents can continue to get work and (at least in theory) compete with the competent people. It doesn't make sense.

Easy solution: restrict everybody to 5 questions a month.

Dan


The right solution to this malaise would be to remove personal information from kudoz answers, such as name, link to profile, and language pairs, and make them completely anonymous.

This would force kudoz answers to be evaluated strictly on the basis of their linguistic merits. It would also remove the advertizing aspects of kudoz answers which I have mentioned in my other posts in this thread.

However, the negative side of this is that often who is posting an answer provides important clues towards the quality of the answer - for example an answer by a person with extensive experience in the subject would be more valuable than an answer by a person who has not worked at all in the subject.

Also, anonymous kudoz answers would also remove much of the fun and camaraderie of kudoz.

This can partly be redeemed if the site can provide a separate identity or marker to members for exclusive use in the kudoz. This could be based on their kudoz ranking, specialities, level of experience and other such relevant attributes, and could take the form of a number of stars of different colours. The more stars means the person is more suited for providing an answer to the asked question. The colours could provide clues to his expertise in a field, his level of experience, proficiency in the language, etc. With this system in place, askers can give more weightage to answers with more stars.

Aside: Also, you are slightly off-topic here, as this thread is not about asking too many kudoz questions, but providing too many kudoz answers!


 
The Misha
The Misha
Local time: 16:20
Russian to English
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Well, I actually have a very long memory for certain things Apr 26, 2016

[quote]Balasubramaniam L. wrote:

The Misha wrote:

Also, we humans have a very short memory for details, but the overall impressions of an experience witnessed by us remain with us for a long time. So the stupid or downright hilarious answers by a poster may titillate us for a few days, but after a few weeks or months, all that would remain in our memory would be the name and language pairs of the person who provided us with this laugh. And that is precisely what the person would want us to remember.


and I sure do know how to hold a grudge. Or maybe I am not human enough? You think I am Martian? Either way, whatever this alleged global cabal of vicious, incompetent translatesters is after, I say let them have it. Let them also choose how many questions to ask and what kind of asinine answers to give. The more laughs the merrier. Otherwise, like I said above, why would most of us, sane professionals who are secure in their chosen trade and don't work for peanuts even bother with this exercise? This is entertainment, and it sure beats watching Desperate Housewives, or whatever it is they have on network TV these days.

As to that line for the Holy Grail here - whatever that coveted Holy Grail is - they can have my ticket. I'll be happy to give it away and move over. In the end of the day, judging by those very questions and answers, they simply cannot do the job I do, Kudoz points or not.


DCForTransla (X)
Daryo
 
Dan Lucas
Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:20
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
It's not as if there are no alternatives to KudoZ Apr 26, 2016

Lincoln Hui wrote:
Merab Dekano wrote:
What about one question a week?

This is sheer insanity. If there are two unusual colloquial expressions in an interview transcript, is the translator screwed?

Insanity? Come now, Lincoln this is a bit melodramatic. Your question implicitly assumes that KudoZ is the only place you can ask questions when you get truly stuck. That is not the case. Even limiting the discussion to online resources, I am on three mailing lists that I find more useful than KudoZ.

Also, sometimes a phrase or term is simply not clear. If that is the case - if you are translating within your sphere of competence it may happen, but it should not happen often - then you should flag it with a simple "I didn't understand this". I occasionally do that; my clients do not object (indeed I suspect they appreciate the honesty) and I'm up to my ears in repeat work at decent rates.

Of course, I accept that asking a question on KudoZ is not in itself an indication of incompetence. However, I do believe that there's an inverse correlation between the number of questions asked and the level of competence.

To me, KudoZ should be a last resort, not a first step.

Regards
Dan


DCForTransla (X)
Yvonne Gallagher
 
Enrique Cavalitto
Enrique Cavalitto  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 17:20
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
Please report to Support any concrete case of abuse Apr 26, 2016

Danielle Deremo Cosimo wrote:

I have a theory that they know something about the Kudoz system that I don't. I believe that there is some kind of scam going on, at least in the Portuguese-English translation community on here, in which people post random answers and their friends "agree" with the answers so that they can get Kudoz points and move each other higher up on the lists.



Saibal Ray wrote:
"people post random answers and their friends "agree" with the answers so that they can get Kudoz points and move each other higher up on the lists"

Thanks for sharing this issue. I raised a ticket to Proz mentioning this issue. Let's see what they have to say.


General rule # 2 states that "No action aimed at gaining unfair advantage in KudoZ, the directory or elsewhere, whether taken alone or as a group, will be tolerated". ProZ.com staff will investigate concrete instances where KudoZ fraud is suspected, and administrative actions are taken when this proves to be the case.

If you have evidence of concrete cases of KudoZ fraud, please submit a support request, indicating the nature of the suspected fraud and the identity of the users allegedly involved. Please note that generic denounces without concrete data will not be processed.

It is also worth remembering that, according to KudoZ rule 3.5, comments or insinuations concerning an answerer's or asker's experience or profile, his/her decision to post a certain question or answer, grade or close a question in a certain way, make a certain glossary entry, etc., are strictly prohibited (whether posted publicly, made directly to the person in question, or made to another site user).

Regards,
Enrique


Lara Barnett
 
Lara Barnett
Lara Barnett  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:20
Member (2011)
French to English
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Portuguese to English Kudoz - silenced Frome indicating non-native errors Jan 17, 2019

I agree with Enrique. I have had problems in the Portuguese to English kudos section in the past when I was intimidated (by the non-native English translators) into removing a disagree, despite the fact I have been a native English speaker of my own language for over 50 years!!

This week the same sort of thing has just happened in this Po-Eng section. Basically, I tried to bring attention to a grammatical error and some non-english styling of an answer chosen by a non-native tran
... See more
I agree with Enrique. I have had problems in the Portuguese to English kudos section in the past when I was intimidated (by the non-native English translators) into removing a disagree, despite the fact I have been a native English speaker of my own language for over 50 years!!

This week the same sort of thing has just happened in this Po-Eng section. Basically, I tried to bring attention to a grammatical error and some non-english styling of an answer chosen by a non-native translator, and made by a non-native translator. I stated that I it would be unfair on future Kudoz users, whose English may not be good, so who wouldn't know any better so may be misled. The Asker then reacted to my comments and became very defensive at his choice of answer, accusing me of trying to use "the Queen's English" (which is a similar sort of comment that I was intimidated with the last time, albeit by a different translator).

Following this I tried to explain politely what the problem was, trying my best to give a polite linguistic description/analysis. However, I was accused of breaking site rules with particular reference to rule 3.5, and all my posts were removed ( ...by the non-native moderator). This now means that future Kudos users may be misled into using erroneous grammar and a non English style of language - yet this seems to be quite unimportant now.

After corresponding with this moderator, and explaining my honest intentions, she told me to post again as long as I didn't offend anyone. But yet again, after posting a similar description, simply stating what the errors were in the chosen answer and the risks of misleading future Kudoz users, my post was removed yet again.

Surely I should be allowed to give a linguistic evaluation(under site rule 3.4 I think?). Also, how can I add my own native English skills and experience to the Kudoz section - especially if there are blatant grammatical errors - , if this merely offends those entering erroneous (and non English style) terms into the Po-Eng glossary ?
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Matthias Brombach
Matthias Brombach  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 21:20
Member (2007)
Dutch to German
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Old problem ... Jan 17, 2019

Danielle Deremo Cosimo wrote:

I believe that there is some kind of scam going on, ... in which people post random answers and their friends "agree" with the answers so that they can get Kudoz points and move each other higher up on the lists.

... how right you are ...

[Bearbeitet am 2019-01-17 10:06 GMT]


 
writeaway
writeaway  Identity Verified
French to English
+ ...
It is against the rules to post any comments criticizing a chosen answer Jan 17, 2019

Lara Barnett wrote:

I agree with Enrique. I have had problems in the Portuguese to English kudos section in the past when I was intimidated (by the non-native English translators) into removing a disagree, despite the fact I have been a native English speaker of my own language for over 50 years!!

This week the same sort of thing has just happened in this Po-Eng section. Basically, I tried to bring attention to a grammatical error and some non-english styling of an answer chosen by a non-native translator, and made by a non-native translator. I stated that I it would be unfair on future Kudoz users, whose English may not be good, so who wouldn't know any better so may be misled. The Asker then reacted to my comments and became very defensive at his choice of answer, accusing me of trying to use "the Queen's English" (which is a similar sort of comment that I was intimidated with the last time, albeit by a different translator).

Following this I tried to explain politely what the problem was, trying my best to give a polite linguistic description/analysis. However, I was accused of breaking site rules with particular reference to rule 3.5, and all my posts were removed ( ...by the non-native moderator). This now means that future Kudos users may be misled into using erroneous grammar and a non English style of language - yet this seems to be quite unimportant now.

After corresponding with this moderator, and explaining my honest intentions, she told me to post again as long as I didn't offend anyone. But yet again, after posting a similar description, simply stating what the errors were in the chosen answer and the risks of misleading future Kudoz users, my post was removed yet again.

Surely I should be allowed to give a linguistic evaluation(under site rule 3.4 I think?). Also, how can I add my own native English skills and experience to the Kudoz section - especially if there are blatant grammatical errors - , if this merely offends those entering erroneous (and non English style) terms into the Po-Eng glossary ?


3.7 Commentary on askers or answerers, and their postings or decisions to post, is not allowed.
Comments or insinuations concerning an answerer's or asker's experience or profile, his/her decision to post a certain question or answer, grade or close a question in a certain way, make a certain glossary entry, etc., are strictly prohibited (whether posted publicly, made directly to the person in question, or made to another site user).
https://www.proz.com/?sp=siterules&mode=show&category=kudoz_answ


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:20
Member (2008)
Italian to English
They are Jan 17, 2019

Danielle Deremo Cosimo wrote:

.........I'd like to know if other translators think these people are scamming the system.....


I know they are because some years ago when I was new to Proz, I was invited to take part in one of these scams. I didn't, and I severed all my contacts with the 2 women who were running this (and other) scams. This was in the Italian-English language pair.

I'm afraid there are some people whose minds are completely corrupt, who get up in the morning thinking how they can exploit others for their own benefit.

[Edited at 2019-01-17 12:44 GMT]


 
Katalin Horváth McClure
Katalin Horváth McClure  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 16:20
Member (2002)
English to Hungarian
+ ...
You can enter a Peer Review for a completed Glossary Entry Jan 18, 2019

Lara Barnett wrote:

how can I add my own native English skills and experience to the Kudoz section - especially if there are blatant grammatical errors - , if this merely offends those entering erroneous (and non English style) terms into the Po-Eng glossary ?


If the Question+Answer pair was entered into the Glossary, then when you open the page of the question, you will see a GLOSSARY ENTRY field on top. On the right side of it there is an "Options" section with three choices in red.
The first option is "- Contribute to this entry". If you click on it, a pop-up window shows up where you can enter a Peer Review for the Glossary entry itself. You can choose to Agree, Disagree or be Neutral.
You only have 255 characters to comment, plus one field each for a definition and a sample sentence.
Maybe you can use this option to enter a concise note about how to say the phrase in perfect, native English. If you do just that, without commenting on what is wrong with the term entered by the Asker or the Answerer, just simply stating the correct one and why it is correct (again without going into why the other one is incorrect), it should be fine.
I am not sure how often people see these Peer Review Comments when searching for terms in the KudoZ Glossary, but at least you can have peace of mind that you did contribute.

Again, this option is only available if the term was "officially" entered into the Glossary.

[Edited at 2019-01-18 05:38 GMT]


Michele Fauble
 
Daryo
Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:20
Serbian to English
+ ...
Are you really saying that Jan 18, 2019

Saibal Ray wrote:

"people post random answers and their friends "agree" with the answers so that they can get Kudoz points and move each other higher up on the lists"


Thanks for sharing this issue. I raised a ticket to Proz mentioning this issue. Let's see what they have to say.



you have discovered only now that some people / individually or in cabals indulge in silly playground games and even outright cheating?

You can add this one: just copy verbatim someone's answer, post it as yours without even bothering to also copy-paste any of the explanations, and then your friend selects your answer. The pathetic pair who done that to one of my answers will probably never understand that in the long term they just wasted their time - and in the process left proofs of their stupidity available to anyone for ever.

Speaking of silly playground games, you can include systematically agreeing with someone else's answer, even if it's rubbish, just to sabotage someone. Or systematically turning questions as "Non-PRO" just because you don't like the answerer who got it right.

To make it even more farcical, sometimes those voting questions as "Non-PRO" first take the trouble to show by their comments that they simply cannot grasp why the question is far from being "simple and obvious".

If you expect anything resembling perfection, you will probably have to wait very long time. And I can't see what kind of rules can stop adults acting like kids if in their tunnel vision they imagine they have something to gain...

[Edited at 2019-01-25 19:39 GMT]


 
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Poor Non-Native Speaker Answers to Terminology Questions






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