| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | The elephant in the room/Behold the KudoZ shenanigans Thread poster: Korana Lasić
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| You might be right | Feb 7, 2021 |
Chris S wrote: Korana Lasić wrote:
Honestly, can you not see why that is problematic? Yes. That's why I made a helpful suggestion about calling in the moderators where the system, which works quite well elsewhere, is being abused.
Maybe I'm coming to it from the wrong angle.
| | | | William Bowley
United Kingdom
Local time: 17:08
Spanish to English
+ ...
| I agree with your OP | Feb 8, 2021 |
A very good post, Korana, which highlights many of the issues with the KudoZ system.
It's a shame, because in theory it's a helpful system that works for and benefits everyone, yet in practice it's unfortunately quite far from that.
Let's not forget the following points, from my experience:
1) Relentless piggybacking onto answers - for example, minutely changing a correct and successful existing answer in such a minor way that there is no real improvement, ... See more A very good post, Korana, which highlights many of the issues with the KudoZ system.
It's a shame, because in theory it's a helpful system that works for and benefits everyone, yet in practice it's unfortunately quite far from that.
Let's not forget the following points, from my experience:
1) Relentless piggybacking onto answers - for example, minutely changing a correct and successful existing answer in such a minor way that there is no real improvement, in an attempt to receive the points.
2) Non-native speakers of the target language frequently giving incorrect and grammatically poor answers, and these being accepted more often than they should be.
3) The original poster asking a question that shows they have a very weak command of the source and/or target language and/or subject matter, and evidently should not be translating the document in question.
4) The original poster selecting an answer that is objectively inferior to others provided, because they do not know what the best answer is and/or why the answer they have chosen is best (often due to points 2 and 3).
5) The same few people (the 'residents', as you aptly put it), speaking down to anyone who dare question an answer by 'one of theirs', and often proving to be some of the most unpleasant people when the quality of their answers is questioned, despite the answers they sometimes give being horrendous.
6) The same residents' references on the forums to how busy they are, how they always have so much work, and so on, yet they are the only ever-presents in the KudoZ system waiting to pounce in an attempt to gain points.
All this, as you highlighted, ultimately results in a well-intended system, a supposed translation 'universe', that ends up as a minefield of bad translations and a clique of destructive and rude contributors.
I had expected this type of environment before I first provided some answers during a quiet period. I was sadly proven right and discouraged from contributing much in future. ▲ Collapse
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Chris S wrote:
In my pairs, KudoZ is very civilised. There are a few clowns but nothing to worry about.
If it’s being abused in other pairs, surely the moderators could intervene?
The same is true of Greek -> English. The majority of responders are knowledgeable and sincerely trying to help. I find KudoZ a very useful resource when I get stuck on something.
| | | | | A matter of perspective | Feb 8, 2021 |
Philip Lees wrote: Chris S wrote:
In my pairs, KudoZ is very civilised. There are a few clowns but nothing to worry about.
If it’s being abused in other pairs, surely the moderators could intervene? The same is true of Greek -> English. The majority of responders are knowledgeable and sincerely trying to help. I find KudoZ a very useful resource when I get stuck on something.
Relative to what is KudoZ helpful? The internet? A specialised dictionary written and vetted in a controlled scientific (linguistic) way? Right. Thank you for your input, Philip.
Edit: I just want you all to know that my language pair is packed with knowledgeable people. Some of the topmost contributors at proz.com, over the years, have been from my language pair. Some of them are retired and none of them participates in KudoZ and there's a reason for that.
I don't buy into this, 'the reason is limited to your language pair, Korana, and you are just worse people than people in my language pair and less knowledgeable'. I just don't.
If you want to help rather analyse why you think KudoZ is working in your pair as well as you say. Chris has done as much by bringing up moderation. I happen to disagree. I don't think moderation can do much of substance for a system that lends itself to even the most knowledgeable hacking it, but at least he tried to bring specific suggestions to the thread.
If you're thinking that people in your language pair are simply superior to the ones in my pair, or any pair from which problems are being reported, that says a lot about you and nothing about people in these pairs.
I would like to apologise to linguists in my language pair on behalf of every Englishman with a propensity towards feeling superior to them. If I knew that's the angle some people will take I'd never start this thread.
[Edited at 2021-02-08 09:12 GMT]
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| Cheers Anton and thank you for chiming in | Feb 8, 2021 |
Anton Konashenok wrote:
Yes, that's exactly what happens on the answer side of KudoZ. In many pairs, there are resident clowns whose answers lack not only knowledge but often even the elementary logic. I wonder if they think they are helping or just consider the whole KudoZ a fun guessing game. Another prolific community is the dictionary quoters not even trying to understand the subject.
On the question side, it's not much better, either - lots of questions that could be unambiguously answered by searching the web for half a minute, and even more questions betraying the asker's glaring ignorance of the subject matter or the target language.
I just realised you're the only one I didn't reply to. Yours was the first entry and I was trying to avoiding doubling down. I'm very high in agreeableness and always trying to make people happy rather than them feeling called out on something. I also do have a bit of a temper so that cancels out some of my agreeableness, I think. Anyway, enough about me.
You bring up very important points with the half-a-minute Internet search and the rest of it. You're also a bridge between the Slavs and the anglophone and being one myself, it's nice to see my kind out here.
[Edited at 2021-02-08 10:21 GMT]
| | | | jyuan_us 
United States
Local time: 12:08
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| For my language pair | Feb 8, 2021 |
KudoZ as a system works perfectly for my language pair. The issues described in this thread rarely come up, and if they do, a moderator would quickly get them resolved.
It is one of the best features of ProZ, and it helps make the ProZ brand shining.
Period.
[Edited at 2021-02-08 10:21 GMT]
[Edited at 2021-02-08 11:19 GMT]
| | | | | One of the best features? Interesting | Feb 8, 2021 |
jyuan_us wrote:
KudoZ as a system works perfectly for my language pair. The issues described in this thread rarely come up, and if they do, a moderator would quickly get them resolved.
It is one of the best features of ProZ, and it makes the ProZ brand shining.
Period.
[Edited at 2021-02-08 10:21 GMT]
I'm curious. How does the moderator check and arbitrate the quality of output?
Will you allow me to ask you a bit of an offtopic question? What per cent of your overall work do you get through proz.com?
Edit: Since I was under the impression it's all the work traffic it allows, the blueboards, the payment feature, the prompt mediating if one has a dispute with an outsourcer...etc that would be some of the most valuable and useful resources proz.com provides. That's why I'm asking.
[Edited at 2021-02-08 10:39 GMT]
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Chris S wrote:
In my pairs, KudoZ is very civilised. There are a few clowns but nothing to worry about.
If it’s being abused in other pairs, surely the moderators could intervene?
The same is true regarding my pairs. The great majority of responders are educated, polite and helpful. I also find KudoZ a very useful resource. I’ve been a very active member since 2006 and over the years, I’ve noticed that both the “know-it-alls” and the “my-way-or-the-highway bullies” tend to disappear from Proz as fast as they appeared…
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| Or you might be part of a KudoZ bubble and groupthink | Feb 8, 2021 |
Teresa Borges wrote: Chris S wrote:
In my pairs, KudoZ is very civilised. There are a few clowns but nothing to worry about.
If it’s being abused in other pairs, surely the moderators could intervene? The same is true regarding my pairs. The great majority of responders are educated, polite and helpful. I also find KudoZ a very useful resource. I’ve been a very active member since 2006 and over the years, I’ve noticed that both the “know-it-alls” and the “my-way-or-the-highway bullies” tend to disappear from Proz as fast as they appeared…
Have you ever considered that you might be a part of KudoZ groupthink and some of the people you think were bullies were just not part of the mentality that makes you think KudoZ works?
Works for what? You are all hanging out and having fun hacking serious linguistic work and enjoying light banter whilst forming a clique? Or you actually manage to produce a quality glossary of everything? Asking for a friend.
[Edited at 2021-02-08 10:50 GMT]
| | | | ahartje
Portugal
Local time: 17:08
Member (2006)
German to Portuguese
+ ...
"Have you ever considered that you might be a part of KudoZ groupthink and some of the people you think were bullies were just not part of the mentality that makes you think KudoZ works?"
Since nobody is forced to participate in any activity, I believe everybody should face Kudoz, forums or whatsoever as useful or even fun features, where s/he takes part in a polite and non-offensive way. Will there be different answers, opinions or way of thinkings? Of course there will, because th... See more "Have you ever considered that you might be a part of KudoZ groupthink and some of the people you think were bullies were just not part of the mentality that makes you think KudoZ works?"
Since nobody is forced to participate in any activity, I believe everybody should face Kudoz, forums or whatsoever as useful or even fun features, where s/he takes part in a polite and non-offensive way. Will there be different answers, opinions or way of thinkings? Of course there will, because this is part of life... fortunately. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Smile and the world smiles with you | Feb 8, 2021 |
I used to moan a lot about this site, with good reason because some aspects of it are very poor. I used to get into big arguments. I’ve been banned a couple of times. The owner himself messaged me one day and basically said if you don’t like it, Chris, why don’t you just do one? And dammit if he didn’t have a point.
The past year has changed me as a person. I’ve become more tolerant. I try not to sweat the small stuff. I try to focus on having fun. Just to stay sane.
... See more I used to moan a lot about this site, with good reason because some aspects of it are very poor. I used to get into big arguments. I’ve been banned a couple of times. The owner himself messaged me one day and basically said if you don’t like it, Chris, why don’t you just do one? And dammit if he didn’t have a point.
The past year has changed me as a person. I’ve become more tolerant. I try not to sweat the small stuff. I try to focus on having fun. Just to stay sane.
I do still get a bit short with people from time to time, but I find that trying to stay lighthearted and positive works much better.
I would imagine that if you keep at it and provide good answers on KudoZ and avoid getting into fights, you will gradually earn respect and be accepted, the same as in any community.
And, as I say, report anything untoward. It’s hard to see how the system itself can be improved to compensate for human nature. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I'm not upset, Chris | Feb 8, 2021 |
Chris S wrote:
I used to moan a lot about this site, with good reason because some aspects of it are very poor. I used to get into big arguments. I’ve been banned a couple of times. The owner himself messaged me one day and basically said if you don’t like it, Chris, why don’t you just do one? And dammit if he didn’t have a point.
The past year has changed me as a person. I’ve become more tolerant. I try not to sweat the small stuff. I try to focus on having fun. Just to stay sane.
I do still get a bit short with people from time to time, but I find that trying to stay lighthearted and positive works much better.
I would imagine that if you keep at it and provide good answers on KudoZ and avoid getting into fights, you will gradually earn respect and be accepted, the same as in any community.
And, as I say, report anything untoward. It’s hard to see how the system itself can be improved to compensate for human nature.
I just think KudoZ leaves much to be desired as a system and potentially provides bogus esteem and this makes it the weakest link of the site and proz.com as a company. I am actually trying to help. I was trying to help when I still expected that we could have a rational discussion about it on the forum.
If you honestly think that most of the people who read this, including the proz staff, will see it as me being short with people or moaning about the site then I should stop right here?
'If you don't like it leave' is fair enough for a private company to tell you if you were in any way belligerent. What I find shocking is that you can in any way associate what I'm doing here with me bashing proz.com as a business, fighting, being short with anyone.
I'm bashing proz.com so much I called them the best there is. Does that mean I need to like everything about the company? Does it mean voicing my opinion is in any way moaning or picking fights?
I would certainly disagree and it's unfortunate if that's what you think my intentions are.
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| Well, never mind I tried | Feb 8, 2021 |
ahartje wrote:
"Have you ever considered that you might be a part of KudoZ groupthink and some of the people you think were bullies were just not part of the mentality that makes you think KudoZ works?"
Since nobody is forced to participate in any activity, I believe everybody should face Kudoz, forums or whatsoever as useful or even fun features, where s/he takes part in a polite and non-offensive way. Will there be different answers, opinions or way of thinkings? Of course there will, because this is part of life... fortunately.
There's nothing wrong with what you're saying but you're addressing a point I wasn't talking about. It's just as well at this point. This seems a huge waste of my time and energy. I wasn't trying to rile people up. I'm sorry if that is all that came out of my effort.
| | | | neilmac
Spain
Local time: 18:08
Spanish to English
+ ...
William Bowley wrote:
A very good post, Korana, which highlights many of the issues with the KudoZ system.
It's a shame, because in theory it's a helpful system that works for and benefits everyone, yet in practice it's unfortunately quite far from that.
Let's not forget the following points, from my experience:
...
6) The same residents' references on the forums to how busy they are, how they always have so much work, and so on, yet they are the only ever-presents in the KudoZ system waiting to pounce in an attempt to gain points.
All this, as you highlighted, ultimately results in a well-intended system, a supposed translation 'universe', that ends up as a minefield of bad translations and a clique of destructive and rude contributors.
I had expected this type of environment before I first provided some answers during a quiet period. I was sadly proven right and discouraged from contributing much in future.
I can't comment on what goes on in other pairs, but I tend to agree to some extent with most of the points William makes about the ES-EN forum, although none of them is the end of the world IMHO. However, I must admit I thought point 6 might be alluding to me, because I'm more or less always pretty busy and may have mentioned it on more than one occasion, although I usually find time to have a quick look at kudoz once or twice a day because I look on it as sort of like a quiz, and I'm a keen quizzer. I also find it useful to brainstorm colleagues for opinions, because since last March I don't usually have anyone around to bounce my ideas off of. At the end of the day, I'd say it's a bit of a curate's egg, but I'm still glad it's there.
| | | | | Hey, your comment is only now visible 'cos it was waiting moderation, I think. | Feb 8, 2021 |
William Bowley wrote:
A very good post, Korana, which highlights many of the issues with the KudoZ system.
It's a shame, because in theory it's a helpful system that works for and benefits everyone, yet in practice it's unfortunately quite far from that.
Let's not forget the following points, from my experience:
1) Relentless piggybacking onto answers - for example, minutely changing a correct and successful existing answer in such a minor way that there is no real improvement, in an attempt to receive the points.
2) Non-native speakers of the target language frequently giving incorrect and grammatically poor answers, and these being accepted more often than they should be.
3) The original poster asking a question that shows they have a very weak command of the source and/or target language and/or subject matter, and evidently should not be translating the document in question.
4) The original poster selecting an answer that is objectively inferior to others provided, because they do not know what the best answer is and/or why the answer they have chosen is best (often due to points 2 and 3).
5) The same few people (the 'residents', as you aptly put it), speaking down to anyone who dare question an answer by 'one of theirs', and often proving to be some of the most unpleasant people when the quality of their answers is questioned, despite the answers they sometimes give being horrendous.
6) The same residents' references on the forums to how busy they are, how they always have so much work, and so on, yet they are the only ever-presents in the KudoZ system waiting to pounce in an attempt to gain points.
All this, as you highlighted, ultimately results in a well-intended system, a supposed translation 'universe', that ends up as a minefield of bad translations and a clique of destructive and rude contributors.
I had expected this type of environment before I first provided some answers during a quiet period. I was sadly proven right and discouraged from contributing much in future.
Yup. I hear you.
I'm starting to think it might be the points-based system and the 'title' that are making things spiral out of control. Instead of it promoting linguistic discussions and contributions just because...People are competing amongst each other and it all becomes about winning rather than language discussions just because we enjoy discussing language. Coupled with only a limited number of characters allowed to explain something as nuanced as translation entries, well not good.
Sure, it was intended as a way to exchange ideas and translation solutions but in practice, it's just not facilitating a genuine intellectual exchange. Instead of people chiming in, explaining their reasoning and enjoying ideas and solutions, you can tell that people are competing with one another and if they can, they will avoid giving points to their competition no matter how much they might actually like their answers. This kills any authentic linguistic discussion and exchange of ideas.
Also, the very idea that we are to give translation solutions based on a fragment and for a text we never read in full is lacking. Whilst, everything being as limited as it is, there is no way for the asker to communicate any broader context. Not really.
It just leaves a lot to be desired but people seem to be getting riled up and I really don't see any point in that.
I appreciate your ideas and thoughts. Thank you.
We better let this thread die down. Making a thread that will polarise and provoke defeats the purpose of the thread.
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