| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11] > | Macedonian vs Macedonian conceptual conflict Thread poster: Said Kaljanac a.k.a. SARAJ
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Said,
I feel good about your second suggestion. You have my vote.
Nick, Karra, Dimitra,
When Said opened this thread I thought we were facing another neverending discussion. I am glad I was wrong I am glad we came to a mutually satisfying solution.
Irena
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Dear Henry,
Regarding our question in http://www.proz.com/topic/83197, because the topic is locked and as you said, you prefer to reply here, I would like to thank you here for your reply.
Please understand that this was a request from all the members of the Macedonian localization team, to post our question in a way I posted, and because I respect their opinions and attitudes, as well... See more Dear Henry,
Regarding our question in http://www.proz.com/topic/83197, because the topic is locked and as you said, you prefer to reply here, I would like to thank you here for your reply.
Please understand that this was a request from all the members of the Macedonian localization team, to post our question in a way I posted, and because I respect their opinions and attitudes, as well as the attitudes of all other translators, I couldn't send you a support ticket.
At the same time, I would like to say thank you to Said for opening this discussion and for acting as a real diplomat. I think he could start with Palestinian matter now as Dimitra said, we will support him.
My kindest regards to all translators who took part in this discussion. We are waiting for your kind reply.
Thank you,
Gabriela ▲ Collapse
| | | | skazakis 
Local time: 08:55
English to Greek
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| Apologies and thanks | Sep 7, 2007 |
Dear Said, dear colleagues,
First, I want to apologize for losing my temper and getting personal on my previous post. If anyone was offended by my posts, please accept my personal apologies.
I also want to commend Said on his proposed second solution. Not only will it lift any and all causes of confusion but, as Nick said, it will also be a very useful tool.
Once again, I feel I must express my admiration to Said for opening this issue to discussion, thu... See more Dear Said, dear colleagues,
First, I want to apologize for losing my temper and getting personal on my previous post. If anyone was offended by my posts, please accept my personal apologies.
I also want to commend Said on his proposed second solution. Not only will it lift any and all causes of confusion but, as Nick said, it will also be a very useful tool.
Once again, I feel I must express my admiration to Said for opening this issue to discussion, thus respecting the sensitivities of two communities in proz.com. I don't know if I would have liked to carry such a "hot potato".
Gabriela, please give me the link to the Palestinian thread
Sakis ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I love friendly and warm hugs and handshakes | Sep 7, 2007 |
Irena, I am glad you feel good.
Gabriela, thank you.
Sakis, you acted in a very professional manner. As far as I am concerned, I didn't feel offended by your arguments.
More and more people thank me, but in return I thank all of you, because without your reactions and discussion we would still be nowhere. So we all are responsible in a positive way for the outcome. All I did was gathered and put together what you proposed.
We should bear in min... See more Irena, I am glad you feel good.
Gabriela, thank you.
Sakis, you acted in a very professional manner. As far as I am concerned, I didn't feel offended by your arguments.
More and more people thank me, but in return I thank all of you, because without your reactions and discussion we would still be nowhere. So we all are responsible in a positive way for the outcome. All I did was gathered and put together what you proposed.
We should bear in mind that we are also humans and that anyone can get carried away when it comes to delicate subjects like this one. So I hope we still form a strong and one stick-together Proz community, rich in cultural heritage, languages, dialects, and so many more things.
Very best regards and all the best
[Edited at 2007-09-07 11:06] ▲ Collapse
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alinguista
Local time: 07:55
French to Macedonian
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Dear Said,
I agree with your suggestion too. I think it is a good solution.
Regards
| | | | | One more vote | Sep 7, 2007 |
Hello Said,
I vote for your 2nd suggestion as well, and kudoz for the excellent coordination of this discussion.
A great weekend to all
Rgds,
Catherine
| | | | | ProZ.com follows the ISO standard | Sep 7, 2007 |
Hi all,
I am sorry for stepping late into this discussion.
I am aware that there are several sensitivities behind this issue. I can only congratulate Said's for his handling of this discussion and the other participants for their willingness to reach an agreement.
ProZ.com has the policy of using the ISO languages (the one with 3 letter codes) and so, in case a forum is created for this language, it will be named after the corresponding ISO name "Macedoni... See more Hi all,
I am sorry for stepping late into this discussion.
I am aware that there are several sensitivities behind this issue. I can only congratulate Said's for his handling of this discussion and the other participants for their willingness to reach an agreement.
ProZ.com has the policy of using the ISO languages (the one with 3 letter codes) and so, in case a forum is created for this language, it will be named after the corresponding ISO name "Macedonian".
We do not plan to depart from this the ISO policy, as it provides clear guidelines along widely accepted international standards.
It is clear to me that this is not a perfect solution (probably there is no perfect solution to some issues) but I don't believe ProZ.com can solve problems that ISO couldn't.
I will write an FAQ on the ISO policy to prevent future confusions.
Regards,
Enrique ▲ Collapse
| | | | ET1
Local time: 06:55
English to Greek
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| Why have a discussion then if you come by with an unfair and clearly favouring one side 'solution'? | Sep 7, 2007 |
Enrique,
I am sorry but I would like to intervene here.
What is the point of having a whole discussion on the matter and coming up with a mutual agreement if you decide to go ahead with an ISO code that most Greeks don't agree with? It is a very big issue for Greeks even linguistically.
I personally find it totally unacceptable and I think Proz
will have a great issue with Greek linguists.
If Proz wills to take such a risk then this is very unf... See more Enrique,
I am sorry but I would like to intervene here.
What is the point of having a whole discussion on the matter and coming up with a mutual agreement if you decide to go ahead with an ISO code that most Greeks don't agree with? It is a very big issue for Greeks even linguistically.
I personally find it totally unacceptable and I think Proz
will have a great issue with Greek linguists.
If Proz wills to take such a risk then this is very unfortunate.
I see you translate fron Aztec. How would you feel if someone came along one day and claimed 'Aztec' was no longer 'Aztec' but 'Greek' so we call it 'AztGreek' from now on? This is how most Macedonians (Greeks from Northern Greece) feel like.
If this forum does not consider how Greeks feel about this matter and favours one side over another without acknowledging our views, then maybe Greeks should think twice about which forums promote their interests as well.
I hope you and Proz reconsider. This is totally unfair as it favours one side unjustifiably and without taking into consideration all the effort made by all other members in this discussion to find a win-win solution. The one you propose (I would still like to believe Proz does not comprehend the seriousness of this matter) is definitely not a win for all members.
I think Proz needs to think twice on this matter. It's not as easy as you put it.
Thank you.
Eva ▲ Collapse
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Even though, I proposed ISO language policy with provided link of FAQ, some did not agree.
I presume that this decision will also lead the Greek community back to disagreement.
I want you to know all that I've done my best to reach an agreement in a least painful way, but unfortunately after days of discussion and painful headaches and insomnia I failed.
All I hope now is that, no matter which community now or in the future, gets their own forum per their ... See more Even though, I proposed ISO language policy with provided link of FAQ, some did not agree.
I presume that this decision will also lead the Greek community back to disagreement.
I want you to know all that I've done my best to reach an agreement in a least painful way, but unfortunately after days of discussion and painful headaches and insomnia I failed.
All I hope now is that, no matter which community now or in the future, gets their own forum per their request.
I would also like to draw attention on the fact that all of us who have taken part into this discussion have come to an agreement and this is something that we should never forget for the sake of our painful days-long discussions.
So, I know that this decision goes against the Greek community, however please, I am begging you, do not forget what we all agreed on --- ONE CONCEPT accepted by both communities.
So, please even though you see the forum under the name Macedonian, remeber this discussion and remember that for all of us we agreed on the fact that Macedonian means a language of INDO-EUROPEAN family and SLAVIC subfamily which apparently will not appear on Non English forums interface. Keep in mind that this very same concept is shared by both communities even though it seems that my idea isn't going to be adopted.
I am sorry I failed to make my compromise implemented, but still hope that each community gets their own forum.
Very best regards
p.s. As far as Proz staffs and Proz site is concerned, please remember that they are in an extremely difficult position and that bringing a decision as this one is all but easy.
I do not think that it is fair to hold Proz responsible for International Standardization, but I am also sure that if ISO renames the denomination Macedonian into another one, Proz will stand by it, which in return certainly could displease the FYROM community, but again, Proz cannot be responsible for it, regardless which community is displeased.
All I hope is that communities live side by side in harmony and continue exchanging professional help.
[Edited at 2007-09-07 23:15] ▲ Collapse
| | | | ET1
Local time: 06:55
English to Greek
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| It is certainly not your fault | Sep 7, 2007 |
Said,
This is not your fault. You helped achieve a very interesting solution and most importantly one that everyone was happy with! This is the one Proz should go for.
I am sorry but myself (and I think most if not all Greeks) are not going to agree that just remembering is enough. It simply isn't. As new members would not know the difference and this is a very big issue. By adding this on FAQs is just not enough.
Would the other side agree with something l... See more Said,
This is not your fault. You helped achieve a very interesting solution and most importantly one that everyone was happy with! This is the one Proz should go for.
I am sorry but myself (and I think most if not all Greeks) are not going to agree that just remembering is enough. It simply isn't. As new members would not know the difference and this is a very big issue. By adding this on FAQs is just not enough.
Would the other side agree with something like that (one that favoured just Greeks)? Of course not.
Proz needs to reconsider. And since you translate from Bosnian you can empathise with this issue but how can someone from Argentina? He simply can't. It's a socioinguistic/topographical matter so far away from Argentina. Enrique is drawing conclusions that are not there for Greeks.
Proz needs to reconsider for the sake of respecting all sociolinguistic/topographical language matters not just for Greek but for all languages. This is just one case as such.
Thank you.
Eva
Replying to your P.S. Said:
1) This does not change the fact that one position is favoured over another. It is even more difficult for a Greek person to see this being accepted in a language community forum.
2) I still hope Proz will reconsider, but I hold Proz responsible (well actually whoever has come up with this decision regardless of all the opinions and agreements given here) for not going along with the decision that all members reached before a site member interfered. If that was its decision from the beginning then why has this discussion been set up? The ISO code does not do justice to the conflict that has been created in sociolinguistic terms. You cannot standardise sociolinguistic differences simple by deleting existing language roots and interfering with local dialectologies.
3)In order for communities to live side by side in harmony as you say, then there should be grounds for that harmony by being equal and fair to all subsequent parts and not to 'some' parts. Harmony presupposes respect and respect presupposes 'treating as equal' and these create the grounds for meaningful communication and co-operation.
Again Said, I think (as all other Greeks) that Proz should go with the decision we ALL agreed with. ISO simply doesn't show the significant sociolinguistic differences here. This is why this is such a big sensitive issue in EU at the moment and trust me this will not go 'as planned'...
Thank you.
Eva
[Edited at 2007-09-08 01:51] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | This is not fair play | Sep 8, 2007 |
Enrique wrote:
Hi all,
I am sorry for stepping late into this discussion.
I am aware that there are several sensitivities behind this issue. I can only congratulate Said's for his handling of this discussion and the other participants for their willingness to reach an agreement.
ProZ.com has the policy of using the ISO languages (the one with 3 letter codes) and so, in case a forum is created for this language, it will be named after the corresponding ISO name "Macedonian".
We do not plan to depart from this the ISO policy, as it provides clear guidelines along widely accepted international standards.
It is clear to me that this is not a perfect solution (probably there is no perfect solution to some issues) but I don't believe ProZ.com can solve problems that ISO couldn't.
I will write an FAQ on the ISO policy to prevent future confusions.
Regards,
Enrique
Dear Enrique,
It is a fact that we are feeling that we have been mocked by the whole attitude of ProZ regarding this matter.
You have dragged us to such a discussion, letting us believe that the solution could be found by this discussion. And when this did happen (when, we must admit, no one expected it), you are coming after 5 days declaring your decision to this forum.
I must admit that you have a strong argument --who could argue with the ISO Organization? However, the least you can do is adding a note regarding the ISO code, as it is in the European Interinstitutional style guide
(http://publications.europa.eu/code/pdf/370000en.htm)
The ISO code (MK) is accepted, subject to addition of the following note: ‘Provisional code which does not prejudge in any way the definitive nomenclature for this country, which will be agreed following the conclusion of negotiations currently taking place at the United Nations.
This way everyone will (and should) know that this is only a convention that is being used UNTIL the name matter is solved in a definitive way.
And since we are talking about standars and the same, which standard has been followed to use only "Macedonia" instead of FYROM - Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, while everyone here (FYROM linguists, Greeks and linguists from other countries) know and accept that this is the official name and not only "Macedonia"?
P.S. I am not trying to raise an issue by this question nor burst another fighting. I am just asking for the standard. No comments or discussions, just the standard. This way I (we) could see that ProZ is indeed an independent community that is simply following the standards, taking into account equally all language communities.
Regards,
Dimitra
[Edited at 2007-09-08 06:22]
| | | | Elena Petelos
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:55
English to Greek
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| ISO? Which is states "Macedonia"? | Sep 8, 2007 |
Enrique wrote:
ProZ.com has the policy of using the ISO languages (the one with 3 letter codes) and so, in case a forum is created for this language, it will be named after the corresponding ISO name "Macedonian".
We do not plan to depart from this the ISO policy, as it provides clear guidelines along widely accepted international standards.
It is clear to me that this is not a perfect solution (probably there is no perfect solution to some issues) but I don't believe ProZ.com can solve problems that ISO couldn't.
I will write an FAQ on the ISO policy to prevent future confusions.
Regards,
Enrique
Hello, Enrique.
Please, remember to include a note clarifying whether you use the same "ISO policy" in country names. Because it seems you have already departed from the policy by "designating".... "Macedonia" as the country name. The official ISO entry is:
"The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"
http://www.iso.org/iso/about/iso_members.htm
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-2)
(Please, do not mention "lack of space". There's always:
F.Y.R.O.M. and the fact .F.Y.R.O.M. is -since 2005- an EU candidate state under THAT name:
http://www.eurunion.org/states/offices.htm
I'm afraid I cannot add any more references to my post (lack of time) -and I mean linguistic- regarding the language matter, but since everyone seemed to have reached such an amicable solution, I thought it pointless (yesterday) to provide references (e.g. from N.G.L. Hammond and Alexander M. Schenker to the Makedonski jazik) -despite the fact, and I do find it quite odd given the fact this is supposed to be the "Linguistics" forum, there is not a single reference to a linguist, paper/journal in linguistics, etc. -apart from a reference to wikipedia -not particularly scientific, yet reliable for getting hold of basic information.
Kind regards
El.
edit: I see Dimitra has always pinpointed the fact. (Many thanks, Dimitra.)
[Edited at 2007-09-08 07:21]
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| ISO coding to be accepted | Sep 8, 2007 |
One voice of support for Enriques proposal.
Language: Macedonian (MK).
Best,
Gordan
[Edited at 2007-09-08 13:36]
| | | | Maria Karra
United States
Local time: 01:55
Member (2000)
Greek to English
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Since staff is not planning to "depart from the ISO policy", then I, like Dimitra and Elena, am also asking that we follow it consistently:
- The name of the country has to change to FYROM throughout the site (e.g. under member/user names in forum posts it should say FYROM and not Macedonia), as this is the official name of the country these days.
- The language name needs to be followed by the ISO code and a note, a... See more Since staff is not planning to "depart from the ISO policy", then I, like Dimitra and Elena, am also asking that we follow it consistently:
- The name of the country has to change to FYROM throughout the site (e.g. under member/user names in forum posts it should say FYROM and not Macedonia), as this is the official name of the country these days.
- The language name needs to be followed by the ISO code and a note, as given in Dimitra's post http://www.proz.com/post/664576#664576 .
Maria ▲ Collapse
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Maria Karra wrote: - The name of the country has to change to FYROM throughout the site (e.g. under member/user names in forum posts it should say FYROM and not Macedonia), as this is the official name of the country these days. - The language name needs to be followed by the ISO code and a note, as given in Dimitra's post http://www.proz.com/post/664576#664576
Sorry Maria, I (as a neutral outsider) disagree with both of these points.
1. I had never heard of the acronym "FYROM" before this thread, and I would have had no idea where or what it is. Your suggestion is tantamount to legislating the country of Macedonia out of existence. To make any headway on this, the Greek contributors to this forum need to show some respect for the legitimate concerns of the people of the Republic of Macedonia.
2. The note is unnecessary - this would also be tantamount to legislating the name "Macedonian" out of existence. If the ISO nomenclature changes, then of course this would justify changing it on ProZ. But requiring one (and only one) of the world's language communities to include an enormously verbose disclaimer to its own name is completely out of proportion.
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