prozuser2016 (asker) Sep 20, 2021:

Thank you for the added answers. I will now attempt to close this discussion as suggested. Best,

AllegroTrans Sep 19, 2021:

Adopted? I don't think we can rule it out but I think "legitimate" may have the sense of "legitimated", indicating that this person was born out of wedlock and then acknowledged by the father, making him a legitimate child. I think if adoption were the case, a different term would be used. I also suspect that in 1892 in Mexico there was no formal adoption system and that adoptions were not recorded on BMD certificates. Some further research is called for.

Jennifer Levey Sep 18, 2021:

Adopted? - We still don't know. Given that Asker’s principal concern was, apparently, to determine whether the groom had been adopted, it may be helpful to point out that, as a general rule, “Once a child has been legally adopted, he is considered a legitimate child of the adopting parent(s) for all intents and purposes. As such, the adoptee (adopted child) is entitled to all the rights and obligations provided by law to legitimate children.”
(See https://www.alburolaw.com/hereditary-rights-of-an-adopted-ch... )

It follows, therefore, that if the certificate merely states that the groom was an “higo leg.” (now taken to mean ‘legitimate son’), that doesn’t preclude the possibility that he may have been adopted. IOW, case not proven

AllegroTrans Sep 18, 2021:

Asker You should now close the question without selecting an answer. Use the "errabt question" or "answer found elsewhere" option. Glad you solved this!

prozuser2016 (asker) Sep 17, 2021:

Thank you again to all for your valuable input.
I was able to examine the manuscript today and what I was told was "hijo/a ley" was in fact "hijo/a leg." The first instance had a very open "g" that actually did look exactly like a "y". But in the second instance the "g" was more closed and I noticed a tiny dot after each one.
It was therefore "hijo legítimo" and "hija legítima" but abbreviated.
My apologies for having steered everyone wrong but your help was very much appreciated.
--
Gracias de nuevo a todos por vuestras valiosas aportaciones.
Hoy he podido examinar el manuscrito y lo que me dijeron que era "hijo/a ley" era en realidad "hijo/a leg." La primera instancia tenía una "g" muy abierta que en realidad sí, se parecía a una "y". Pero en la segunda instancia la "g" era más cerrada y noté un pequeño punto después de cada una.
Por tanto, era "hijo legítimo" e "hija legítima", pero abreviado.
Mis disculpas por haber dirigido a todos mal pero su ayuda ha sido muy apreciada.

O G V Sep 17, 2021:

cierto, muy probable que llevaran años por allí no tenían por qué haber llegado en esas fechas

Jennifer Levey Sep 17, 2021:

@Oscar "En 1892 no había Inquisición"
No, of course there wasn't.
But large numbers of Sephardi Jews did flee northwards to escape the Inquisition while it was in place in Mexico, and their descendants formed the "Crypto-Jewish" community in what was later known as the US State of New Mexico.

O G V Sep 17, 2021:

En 1892 no había Inquisición
De huir de España, como tantos judíos sefardíes, estarían huyendo de la mismísima iglesia católica, algo que ha ocurrido hasta hace bien poco.
De aquellos años puede esperarse cualquier cosa, eran tiempos dados a la hipocresía y el oscurantismo, y podría incluso considerarse vergonzoso casar a la hija con un adoptado, convertido en “hijo ley”, quizá “hijo por ley” o político, mi suposición.
Curiosamente, no dicen "yerno", quizá por influencia del inglés “son in law”(o porque no conocen o manejan "yerno") o por adaptación de la fórmula judía "hijo en la ley".

Jennifer Levey Sep 17, 2021:

@Asker Regarding Asker’s assertion that: “Our point is to make sure he is not an adopted son”, I venture to suggest that it is extremely unlikely that a marriage certificate would contain any details that could be used to establish – or even infer – that the groom had been adopted.
As a general rule, BMD certificates only contain details that are relevant to the event that is being celebrated, and are required in order to establish that all the legal requirements have been met. In the case of a marriage, the required details about the bride and groom are limited to those necessary to establish their respective identities, sex and age. Adoption is irrelevant in this context.
As a case in point, my late father was adopted as a child, and my parents’ marriage certificate (which I have on-screen as I write this) makes no mention whatsoever of this fact.
If you want proof that G.M. on your certificate was not adopted, you should probably be looking elsewhere. In a register of adoptions, for example.

AllegroTrans Sep 17, 2021:

Asker Who officiated this marriage? Catholic priest? Other? This might possibly be important

AllegroTrans Sep 17, 2021:

Good idea from Robin to look at the names; they may or may not be Sephardic, but could be entirely Spanish (maybe hiding their Jewish origin). Alternatively, I find Adrian's answer credible. What I do not understand is "Our point is to make sure he is not an adopted son"; you cannot make a translation fit a preconceived idea and if there is any doubt as to what it means, it may be wise to insert a translator's note to that effect.

Jennifer Levey Sep 17, 2021:

@Asker Unfortunately you still haven't told us what religion/faith lies behind the marriage certificate.

The fact that the certificate is from 19th Century New Mexico does not preclude the possibility that it refers to members of a Jewish family. Many Jews of Iberian origin (“Sephardic Jews”) fled north from Mexico to the relative safety of New Mexico to escape the Spanish Inquisition. Although many of them maintained their Jewish traditions in a clandestine manner, under cover of an apparent conversion to Catholicism (so-called ‘Crypto-Jews’), by the 19th Century they had begun to declare their real faith publicly, and celebrate their traditional rituals openly.

Note also that in this religious context “Hija ley” refers to a girl who has celebrated ‘Bat Mitzvah’ and, like an ‘Hijo ley’, is considered to be of legal age.

There’s lots of useful background info here:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2000/12/mistake...

And here, there’s a list of some of the more-common Sephardic family surnames, where maybe you'll find a match with the names on the certificate:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/nuevo-mexico/surnames

prozuser2016 (asker) Sep 17, 2021:

As far as
"In Facie Ecclesiæ" (someone asked)
Before the church; with priestly sanction; with ecclesiastical publicity: said of marriage solemnized by the church, as distinguished from a clandestine or a purely secular contract.

prozuser2016 (asker) Sep 17, 2021:

Thank you to all for your rich and professional input.
The country is actually the US in 1892, Manzano, New Mexico.
NM became the 47th state on January 6, 1912 even though it had been eligible for statehood 60 years earlier but was delayed due to its majority of the population being "alien" (i.e. Mexican-American).
It then makes sense that the certificate is written in Spanish. Culturally and legally speaking, the influence is Mexican.
"Our point is to make sure he is not an adopted son." comes from my client's concern when reading "Hijo ley", which, of course, is close to "Hijo en ley". These considerations planted a doubt in my client's mind as to whether the son was only a son by law but not by blood.
An important point though is that the bride in the same certificate is also referred to as "Hija ley". Although not impossible, it seems unlikely that both the bride and the groom would have been adopted.

AllegroTrans Sep 17, 2021:

We are waiting for a response from the Asker.

O G V Sep 16, 2021:

por los resultados que arroja "casé y velé" 3 Los acontecimientos de Coca durante la Guerra de la ...https://books.google.es › books
Felipe Rodríguez Martínez · 2008
... junio de mil setecientos noventa y seis, yo, el infraescripto cura párroco de esta yglesia de la Naba, y en ella, casé y velé a Pedro García Villagrán, ...

Medellín - Matrimonios La Candelaria libro 4.pdf - Rodriguez ...https://rodriguezuribe.co › documents
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En nueve de febrero de mil setecientos ochenta y nueve casé y velé in facie ecclesiae a Valentín Zapata con Josefa Cortés. Precedieron las tres proclamas en ...
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libro de casados en quilmes: y los de la ensenada de barragánhttps://docplayer.es › 10668485-Libro-de-casados-en-q...
... y moniciones dispuestas por derecho casé y velé in facie ecclesiae en esta ... casé y velé en esta Iglesia Parroquial de los Quilmes a Francisco Indio ...

matrimonio y raza en una parroquia rural: san luis de la paz ...https://historiamexicana.colmex.mx › download
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de C Rabell · 1992 · Citado por 27 — mas del matrimonio en Zamora, Michoacán. Constata la sacralización del matrimonio a través de la mención "casé y velé" que aparece en las ...

y se citan varios países, así que...

O G V Sep 16, 2021:

por los resultados que arroja "casé y velé" 2 Expo Syllabus Templatehttps://familysearch.brightspotcdn.com › volante-...
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Casé y velé. •. Por palabras de presentes, ambos contrayentes presentes. •. Hijo(a) de legítimo matrimonio. Informaciones o expedientes matrimoniales.
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15 sept 2015 — casé y velé (a) - casé y bendije con velación in facie ecclesiae (Latin) - frente a la congregación por palabras de presente - usando ...

Los matrimonios: documentos vitales (II) - Cristián Cofré ...https://www.cristiancofre.cl › post › los-matrimonios-docu...
6 oct 2019 — Partida de matrimonio y velación de Juan Correa con Josefa Elgueta. "... en el día anterior casé y velé in facie eclisae...".

ORIGEN DE LOS REGISTROS PARROQUIALES, por José ...https://josemunozvillaharta.blog › 2020/08/28 › origen-...
28 ago 2020 — ... de otubre del año susodicho case y vele todo junto a Joan Sanchez y ... el caso del primer matrimonio que hemos señalado: “casé y velé”.

O G V Sep 16, 2021:

por los resultados que arroja "casé y velé" se trata de un rito de la iglesia católica.

Casé y velé - FamilySearch Wikihttps://www.familysearch.org › wiki › Casé_y_velé
Casé y velé ... "La expresión se refiere al matrimonio con su celebración completa desde el punto de vista litúrgico. La práctica antigua era que la boda ...

Case y vale in facie eclesiae | WordReference Forumshttps://forum.wordreference.com › threads › case-y-val...
11 oct 2017 — It's got to be 'casé y velé'. Look here: Frases Comunes en Registros parroquiales. For 'velación' look here: http://dle.rae.es/?id=bT1qe6R| ...
9 publicaciones

·

Alguien me podria ayudar a traducir esta frase? Ya entiendo que "in facie eclesiae" es ...

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casé y velé (a) casé y bendije con velación in facie ecclesiae (Latin) frente a la congregación. Page 8. FRASES COMUNES EN REGISTROS PARROQUIALES.
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19 may 2020 — 12 febrero 1736: En la iglesia parroquial de Nochistlán…como teniente de cura casé y velé in facie ecclesiae a Juan de Dios Quezada, ...

Jennifer Levey Sep 16, 2021:

Not only which country... ... we also need to know which religion/faith lies behind the marriage certificate.

AllegroTrans Sep 16, 2021:

Asker Which country is this from please? And what do you mean by "Our point is to make sure he is not an adopted son"?

Jennifer Levey Sep 16, 2021:

@Taña I posted it a while ago...

Taña Dalglish Sep 16, 2021:

@ Robin I see that, but that does not mean the phrase "hijo ley" is correct! If you feel there is proof of the legitimate use of this phrase, then post it!

patinba Sep 16, 2021:

@asker Could we know the country, please?

Jennifer Levey Sep 16, 2021:

@ Taña y Juan Jacob La frase de la consulta es 'Hijo Ley', no 'Hijo legítimo'. Son conceptos distintos.

O G V Sep 16, 2021:

diría que se refiere a hijo político es decir, yerno.
en https://www.ellitoral.com/index.php/diarios/2008/06/07/nosot... los mencionan juntos como equivalentes:
El talmud mismo es una rica fuente para patronímicos, ilustrando el hecho que éstos fueron tan comunes que era necesario distinguir los nombres de uno a otro usando los parentescos de otro que el sincero hijo de tal como, hijo en la ley o hijo político, hermano político, etc..

Taña Dalglish Sep 16, 2021:

http://www.genealogia.org.mx/descargas/Yuri_Terminos Frecuen... (see page 4) hijo legítimo > hijo nacido de legítimo matrimonio. Creo que Juan Jacob tiene razón - hijo legítimo.

Juan Jacob Sep 16, 2021:

¿De dónde es esto? Jamás escuchado. Quizá "legítimo".