| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9] > | What is post-editing exactly? Thread poster: Alan Wang
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ysun 
United States
Local time: 01:50
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Not to hurry | Mar 27, 2013 |
Alan Wang wrote:
Don't you know that the most effective way to get your point across is to give your own version. Try to be a proofreader or a reviewer.
Let me see what you've got.
First of all, could you please let me know if this is a text used by a client for test translation? If it is, you should know that you are obliged to keep it confidential and shouldn't post it in public for discussion.
If you couldn’t even understand what I've already pointed out, what sense would it make if I provide my own version? Usually, I don’t do proofreading or editing for poor translations because 朽木不可雕, especially when it is free. Besides, I am very busy today!
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 01:50
English to Chinese
+ ...
| 还有一句俗语：莫对牛弹琴 | Mar 27, 2013 |
Alan Wang wrote: 是驴子是马拖出来溜溜 wherestip wrote: Alan Wang wrote:
Don't you know that the most effective way to get your point across is to give your own version. Try to be a proofreader or a reviewer.
Let me see what you've got.
Alan, Pardon me for being too frank, but if you can't understand the mistakes you've made after Yueyin pointed them out for you, you've got a long way to go.
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 14:50
Chinese to English
| Bad reference tool | Mar 27, 2013 |
Alan Wang wrote:
I am amazed some True Professionals seem to think that using GT is to let it to make decision for you.
GT results are reference only.
Just like the other reference tools.
I've talked about this before:
http://www.proz.com/forum/money_matters/212945-google_translate_vs_post_editing_is_it_the_future_already-page2.html
1. GT is different to your other tools if it places the GT text in your translation side...If it goes into your translation window and so turns "translation" into "editing", then I do think there is a qualitative difference in what's happening, and one that is likely to cause problems of under-editing.
And:
I can't trust it. I still have to read every sentence like a hawk. So, as far as I'm concerned it's not helping.
You can, of course, use GT as a reference. But it's a bad reference tool, because you can't trust it. Wikipedia, I trust (to a certain extent); HK government websites, I trust; my own comparative research. GT just isn't a trustworthy reference, so it's not worth my time.
| | | | Alan Wang
China
Local time: 14:50
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Again, we come to the desire to let the machine to decide for me because “I want something I can trust”.
No, I can only trust my eye, my knowledge, my judgment and my skills.
Bad tool or good tool, ultimately it depends on the person using it.
And the error rates registered by your proofreader or clients will say it all.
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Phil Hand
China
Local time: 14:50
Chinese to English
| Honestly, that's just silly | Mar 27, 2013 |
Alan Wang wrote:
Again, we come to the desire to let the machine to decide for me because “I want something I can trust”.
No, I can only trust my eye, my knowledge, my judgment and my skills.
So is it your eye, your knowledge or your skills that tells you that 博落回 means macleaya cordata? Or that 液膜 is liquid membrane?
You can't make these calls for yourself, unless you've had direct experience in some way, and I'm sure you haven't. I certainly haven't. So the only way I can know whether 液膜 really is liquid membrane is to read up on it in Chinese, then read up on "liquid membrane" in English, and work out if they really are the same thing, or if it's a false friend.
In that process, sure, one could use GT, but it wouldn't save you any time.
每个人有他自己的一套做法。我最常用的字典是nciku，作为基本的、易用的快速参考工具，我觉得还不错，但它的资料确实不咋地，我也不会强力推荐别人去用它。你那么爱用GT，那你就用吧。但是：
1）自己的恶习，别以为别人会觉得好到哪里去。
2）GT是个有害物体，你觉得你用得好，那我不跟你争，但是GT是我们行业被滥用得最多的技术。人家自然而然就对它产生反感。
| | | | Alan Wang
China
Local time: 14:50
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | what's silly | Mar 28, 2013 |
I do research, of course, because I trust my judgment, not because “I want something I can trust”.
Is there a difference?
What is silly is to preclude its usefulness while the entire problem may be the person uses it.
I have already made it clear in that case. And it says if this doesn't mean anything, it’s because there’s utter arrogance, ignorance and vanity to boot!
I am not preaching for anybody who’s not doing it already to d... See more I do research, of course, because I trust my judgment, not because “I want something I can trust”.
Is there a difference?
What is silly is to preclude its usefulness while the entire problem may be the person uses it.
I have already made it clear in that case. And it says if this doesn't mean anything, it’s because there’s utter arrogance, ignorance and vanity to boot!
I am not preaching for anybody who’s not doing it already to do it. Some people just don’t have the ability to use it.
Phil Hand wrote: Alan Wang wrote:
Again, we come to the desire to let the machine to decide for me because “I want something I can trust”.
No, I can only trust my eye, my knowledge, my judgment and my skills.
So is it your eye, your knowledge or your skills that tells you that 博落回 means macleaya cordata? Or that 液膜 is liquid membrane? You can't make these calls for yourself, unless you've had direct experience in some way, and I'm sure you haven't. I certainly haven't. So the only way I can know whether 液膜 really is liquid membrane is to read up on it in Chinese, then read up on "liquid membrane" in English, and work out if they really are the same thing, or if it's a false friend. In that process, sure, one could use GT, but it wouldn't save you any time. 每个人有他自己的一套做法。我最常用的字典是nciku，作为基本的、易用的快速参考工具，我觉得还不错，但它的资料确实不咋地，我也不会强力推荐别人去用它。你那么爱用GT，那你就用吧。但是： 1）自己的恶习，别以为别人会觉得好到哪里去。 2）GT是个有害物体，你觉得你用得好，那我不跟你争，但是GT是我们行业被滥用得最多的技术。人家自然而然就对它产生反感。
[Edited at 2013-03-28 01:08 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 01:50
English to Chinese
+ ...
Alan Wang wrote:
再将pH =4 的博落回盐酸提取液或硫酸提取液与乳状液按照乳水体积比为 (50 : 5 - 50 : 20) 加入提取器中，在200 转/分~300 转/分的低速搅拌提取5 -15min; 经水浴加热破乳后分出油层，所得水相即为博落回中总生物碱的溶液。
This liquid and the acid (hydrochloric or sulfuric) extract solution (pH 4) of the plant material are introduced into an extraction vessel at a volume ratio from 50: 5 to 50: 20. The mixture is stirred for 5-15 min. at 200 ~ 300 rev / min. and water-bath heated to obtain demulsification and separation of oil layer from the aqueous layer containing total alkaloids.
前面我冒昧指出了你以上译文中的错误，现应你的要求提供我的译文如下：
The emulsion and hydrochloric acid (or sulfuric acid) extract of Macleaya cordata (pH = 4) are added into an extractor in a volume ratio of 50:5 to 50:20 to carry out extraction for 5 to 15 min while being stirred at a low speed of 200 rpm to 300 rpm. Then, the emulsion is heated in a water bath for demulsification followed by oil layer removal to obtain an aqueous phase which is a solution of total alkaloids extracted from the Macleaya cordata.
上面原文中的红字，是你漏译的关键词。连 “Google Translate” 都没有漏掉的关键词，你为何漏掉？难道你比“Google Translate” 还粗心？
既然 Phil 也恰巧译过此稿，那很明显它是某客户使用的一篇试译稿（尽管你不敢承认）。鉴于该客户很可能还要继续使用此稿，请恕我不能提供全部译文。但从这一段译文，已足以看出你我之间的区别。你要我提供我的译文，无非是为了拍砖。好吧，你尽管拍砖，不过要小心别砸到自己的脚！
| | | | ysun
United States
Local time: 01:50
English to Chinese
+ ...
Phil Hand wrote:
至于两万个字三天完成。。。
Alan Wang 是三天完成 “a 200 k file of Chinese characters”。如果我的理解没错的话，那是二十万中文字，而不是二十万个文件。
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Alan Wang
China
Local time: 14:50
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
这回一定拍砖。先照相。晚上来
ysun wrote: Alan Wang wrote:
再将pH =4 的博落回盐酸提取液或硫酸提取液与乳状液按照乳水体积比为 (50 : 5 - 50 : 20) 加入提取器中，在200 转/分~300 转/分的低速搅拌提取5 -15min; 经水浴加热破乳后分出油层，所得水相即为博落回中总生物碱的溶液。
This liquid and the acid (hydrochloric or sulfuric) extract solution (pH 4) of the plant material are introduced into an extraction vessel at a volume ratio from 50: 5 to 50: 20. The mixture is stirred for 5-15 min. at 200 ~ 300 rev / min. and water-bath heated to obtain demulsification and separation of oil layer from the aqueous layer containing total alkaloids. 前面我冒昧指出了你以上译文中的错误，现应你的要求提供我的译文如下： The emulsion and hydrochloric acid (or sulfuric acid) extract of Macleaya cordata (pH = 4) are added into an extractor in a volume ratio of 50:5 to 50:20 to carry out extraction for 5 to 15 min while being stirred at a low speed of 200 rpm to 300 rpm. Then, the emulsion is heated in a water bath for demulsification followed by oil layer removal to obtain an aqueous phase which is a solution of total alkaloids extracted from the Macleaya cordata. 上面原文中的红字，是你漏译的关键词。连 “Google Translate” 都没有漏掉的关键词，你为何漏掉？难道你比“Google Translate” 还粗心？ 既然 Phil 也恰巧译过此稿，那很明显它是某客户使用的一篇试译稿（尽管你不敢承认）。鉴于该客户很可能还要继续使用此稿，请恕我不能提供全部译文。但从这一段译文，已足以看出你我之间的区别。你要我提供我的译文，无非是为了拍砖。好吧，你尽管拍砖，不过要小心别砸到自己的脚！
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 01:50
Chinese to English
+ ...
Alan Wang wrote:
I can only trust my eye, my knowledge, my judgment and my skills.
It almost sounds like a slogan to me, and a pretty egocentric one at that.
Kidding aside, it reflects on your psyche, Alan. IMO, it's not conducive to learning.
| | | | Alan Wang
China
Local time: 14:50
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
ysun wrote: Alan Wang wrote:
再将pH =4 的博落回盐酸提取液或硫酸提取液与乳状液按照乳水体积比为 (50 : 5 - 50 : 20) 加入提取器中，在200 转/分~300 转/分的低速搅拌提取5 -15min; 经水浴加热破乳后分出油层，所得水相即为博落回中总生物碱的溶液。
This liquid and the acid (hydrochloric or sulfuric) extract solution (pH 4) of the plant material are introduced into an extraction vessel at a volume ratio from 50: 5 to 50: 20. The mixture is stirred for 5-15 min. at 200 ~ 300 rev / min. and water-bath heated to obtain demulsification and separation of oil layer from the aqueous layer containing total alkaloids. 前面我冒昧指出了你以上译文中的错误，现应你的要求提供我的译文如下： The emulsion and hydrochloric acid (or sulfuric acid) extract of Macleaya cordata (pH = 4) are added into an extractor in a volume ratio of 50:5 to 50:20 to carry out extraction for 5 to 15 min while being stirred at a low speed of 200 rpm to 300 rpm. Then, the emulsion is heated in a water bath for demulsification followed by oil layer removal to obtain an aqueous phase which is a solution of total alkaloids extracted from the Macleaya cordata. 上面原文中的红字，是你漏译的关键词。连 “Google Translate” 都没有漏掉的关键词，你为何漏掉？难道你比“Google Translate” 还粗心？ 既然 Phil 也恰巧译过此稿，那很明显它是某客户使用的一篇试译稿（尽管你不敢承认）。鉴于该客户很可能还要继续使用此稿，请恕我不能提供全部译文。但从这一段译文，已足以看出你我之间的区别。你要我提供我的译文，无非是为了拍砖。好吧，你尽管拍砖，不过要小心别砸到自己的脚！
在200 转/分~300 转/分的低速搅拌提取5 -15min
【你的翻译】to carry out extraction for 5 to 15 min while being stirred at a low speed of 200 rpm to 300 rpm
【我的翻译】The mixture is stirred for 5-15 min. at 200 ~ 300 rev / min.
第一、 此处的提取应该只是指搅拌过程。而你的翻译，特别是这个【while】让人以为在这一阶段存在【搅拌】和【提取】两种不同的过程。
第二、 【提取】包括几个步骤，涉及的是整个发明的宗旨。你这样翻译是把【提取】用在了其中一个中间步骤上，这时，离提取成功还缺了一个步骤。所以这时不存在真正的提取【to carry out extraction】。此时，无论怎么搅拌，都还是搅拌液。如果这时存在提取，就必须指明提取到哪里去了？你没有指出。所以即使这时有提取，比如在液体混合液之间发生什么交换，也不能说。否则给人一种莫名其妙的感觉。
第三、 要成功提取，是在搅拌以后，【经水浴加热破乳后分出油层】，然后【所得水相即为博落回中总生物碱的溶液】。你在搅拌这一步就说在提取了，是不是过早了？根据字面翻译易落陷阱！
你说我漏译了第一个【博落回】，实际上没有漏译。我把它译为【the plant material】。指的是这种植物的干粉，即提取中实际采用的。因为前面提到了该植物的名称，这里无需重复这个怪名。的确，我喜欢不根据字面去翻译。
第二个【博落回】是彻彻底底可以省略的。所以一点都不客气。整个发明就在说这种植物的总生物碱。
先说这点，有必要再说。
不见得正确。所以多包涵。
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 01:50
Chinese to English
+ ...
| "Extraction in chemistry is a separation process ..." | Mar 28, 2013 |
http://www.med126.com/pharm/2010/20101223123010_315673.shtml
Alan,
I agree with Yueyin, although I am a complete layman in this field. The extraction process occurs while the mixture is being stirred in the extractor. It's called an extractor for a reason, you know. The demulsification and separation of the oil layer are subsequent steps that come after the actual chemical extraction step of the operation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraction_(chemistry) Extraction in chemistry is a separation process consisting in the separation of a substance from a matrix. It may refer to Liquid-liquid extraction, and Solid phase extraction. Other techniques include Supercritical carbon dioxide extraction, ultrasonic extraction, heat reflux extraction, microwave-assisted extraction, DIC (instant controlled pressure drop).[1] Extractions use two immiscible phases to separate a solute from one phase into the other. The distribution of a solute between two phases is an equilibrium condition described by partition theory. Boiling tea leaves in water extracts the tannins, theobromine, and caffeine out of the leaves and into the water. More typical lab extractions are of organic compounds out of an aqueous phase and into an organic phase.
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Alan Wang
China
Local time: 14:50
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
我们不妨做一个想象试验。
某人拿一根棍子，在一个大瓶子里搅动。嘴里哼着：我一边搅动一边提取、我一边搅动一边提取、我一边搅动一边提取、我一边搅动一边提取、我一边搅动一边提取。
你不觉得好笑吗？
实际上，他只是在搅动而已！提取到哪里去了呢？
但是，提取在最后一步实现了，所以我们叫它提取器。
wherestip wrote: http://www.med126.com/pharm/2010/20101223123010_315673.shtml Alan, I agree with Yueyin, although I am a complete layman in this field. The extraction process occurs while the mixture is being stirred in the extractor. It's called an extractor for a reason, you know. The demulsification and separation of the oil layer are subsequent steps that come after the actual chemical extraction step of the operation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraction_(chemistry) Extraction in chemistry is a separation process consisting in the separation of a substance from a matrix. It may refer to Liquid-liquid extraction, and Solid phase extraction. Other techniques include Supercritical carbon dioxide extraction, ultrasonic extraction, heat reflux extraction, microwave-assisted extraction, DIC (instant controlled pressure drop).[1] Extractions use two immiscible phases to separate a solute from one phase into the other. The distribution of a solute between two phases is an equilibrium condition described by partition theory. Boiling tea leaves in water extracts the tannins, theobromine, and caffeine out of the leaves and into the water. More typical lab extractions are of organic compounds out of an aqueous phase and into an organic phase.
| | | | wherestip
United States
Local time: 01:50
Chinese to English
+ ...
Alan Wang wrote: 我们不妨做一个想象试验。 某人拿一根棍子，在一个大瓶子里搅动。嘴里哼着：我一边搅动一边提取、我一边搅动一边提取、我一边搅动一边提取、我一边搅动一边提取、我一边搅动一边提取。 你不觉得好笑吗？ 实际上，他只是在搅动而已！提取到哪里去了呢？ 但是，提取在最后一步实现了，所以我们叫它提取器。 wherestip wrote: http://www.med126.com/pharm/2010/20101223123010_315673.shtml Alan, I agree with Yueyin, although I am a complete layman in this field. The extraction process occurs while the mixture is being stirred in the extractor. It's called an extractor for a reason, you know. The demulsification and separation of the oil layer are subsequent steps that come after the actual chemical extraction step of the operation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraction_(chemistry) Extraction in chemistry is a separation process consisting in the separation of a substance from a matrix. It may refer to Liquid-liquid extraction, and Solid phase extraction. Other techniques include Supercritical carbon dioxide extraction, ultrasonic extraction, heat reflux extraction, microwave-assisted extraction, DIC (instant controlled pressure drop).[1] Extractions use two immiscible phases to separate a solute from one phase into the other. The distribution of a solute between two phases is an equilibrium condition described by partition theory. Boiling tea leaves in water extracts the tannins, theobromine, and caffeine out of the leaves and into the water. More typical lab extractions are of organic compounds out of an aqueous phase and into an organic phase.
Have you ever thought of the possibility of this being also a chemical process instead of solely a mechanical one? That's why you are not the expert, and Yueyin is. 
| | | | Rita Pang
Canada
Local time: 02:50
Member (2011)
Chinese to English
+ ...
Moderator of this forum | Tell us more | Mar 28, 2013 |
Phil Hand wrote:
每个人有他自己的一套做法。我最常用的字典是nciku，作为基本的、易用的快速参考工具，我觉得还不错，但它的资料确实不咋地，我也不会强力推荐别人去用它。你那么爱用GT，那你就用吧。但是：
Hey Phil, can you elaborate a bit on why you use this particular dictionary the most often?
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And Alan, frankly, with all due respect, I really wouldn't talk too much about post-editing if I were you on a public forum. I am not here to judge your expertise or your ability to translate; my concern is mostly that your repeated insistence on the relatively superb ability of post-editing or MT might put you strictly in that field of work. If someone were to collaborate with you, found you on proz and did a search under your name, the frequent popping up of your name in a link related to MT might turn some customers away (who are, frankly, willing to pay more than $0.06 USD...) Just my two cents, I hold no personal nor professional grudge against your preferred method of work.
I gotta say though, I truly think you scored a deal with the 200 K job Kudos to you on that one.
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