| Páginas no tópico: [1 2] > | "Dumbing Down" English? Tópico cartaz: dolichos
|
|---|
Hi,
I wonder if anybody here deals with a demand to "dumb down" their language for non-natives? I might be venting a bit here but there is a real issue I'm dealing with.
I've been doing free-lance translation for many years, mostly books, articles and film subtitles. My source language is Turkish. I might mention that one film I translated was recognized at a festival for "best subtitles," so this is not a foreign area for me.
Unless I receive special inst... See more Hi,
I wonder if anybody here deals with a demand to "dumb down" their language for non-natives? I might be venting a bit here but there is a real issue I'm dealing with.
I've been doing free-lance translation for many years, mostly books, articles and film subtitles. My source language is Turkish. I might mention that one film I translated was recognized at a festival for "best subtitles," so this is not a foreign area for me.
Unless I receive special instructions to do otherwise, my goal is always to reflect the meaning and feel of the original text without unnecessary complexity or wordiness. Translating from Turkish, that becomes instinctive, since many Turkish writers use very general, vague but flowery language, and long redundant sentences. Part of this is simply a matter of linguistic culture. Translators from Japanese must know exactly what I'm talking about. Some clients with a fair knowledge of English look for their wordiness in the English and when they don't find it, think the translation is "not faithful." That's fairly easy to deal with as long as you don't make them lose face.
I'm having the opposite issue with a client now. He has sent me a film synopsis and director's statement. The synopsis in particular was a typically wordy, redundant text. In translating it, I divided up the long sentences and replaced long wordy phrases with more precise words.
The client now says my English is "too complex" and "too difficult," and says that since many of the readers may not be native English speakers, I need to use simpler words. For example, I write "events playing out before his eyes" and he says "don't say 'playing out,' people might not understand, say 'happening.'" "Playing out" isn't exactly a rarefied literary term. Part of the problem is that he thinks his English is good, so if he has trouble with anything it must be really high-level English. My inner voice says "Just because your English is crap doesn't mean mine is too complex." Obviously I can't say that.
If a client has special needs, I have no problem as long as they tell me in advance, but the things he deems "too complex" simply are not. He actually admits that what he wants from me is "bad English" for the sake of non-native speakers. Simpler English is one thing; clumsy, vague English is another. I don't want my name on a text that doesn't sound natural.
Have any of you dealt with this issue? Where do you draw the line? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Paula Darwish 
Reino Unido
Local time: 21:25
Membro (2013)
turco para inglês
+ ...
| style requests should come before you do the job | Jan 27, 2016 |
I don't think you necessarily need to write bad English to keep out the idioms but I agree that the more idiomatic touches you take out of a text, the more it turns into a bit of a verbal belly flop. I also think if the client wants a certain style, they should specify it before you have done all the work.
I was asked to write plain, simple English with as few idioms as possible for the website of a large multinational Turkish company. The reason for this was that my English trans... See more I don't think you necessarily need to write bad English to keep out the idioms but I agree that the more idiomatic touches you take out of a text, the more it turns into a bit of a verbal belly flop. I also think if the client wants a certain style, they should specify it before you have done all the work.
I was asked to write plain, simple English with as few idioms as possible for the website of a large multinational Turkish company. The reason for this was that my English translation was to be translated into 10 other languages and they wanted to remove the error margin as much as possible. Also, the instructions on the site were to be read by non-native English speakers all over the world so it would have been wrong to make the language specifically UK/US oriented. I found that perfectly acceptable and although I don't particularly like the way a lot of the text I translated reads, I must admit that it's very easy to understand by anyone with a reasonable level of English.
However, if the client was aiming at , for example, a specifically UK or US market, I would have argued that the text should be idiomatic and written a bit more imaginatively.
In your case, I think your client needs to understand that English and Turkish are massively different languages so unless he/she is an English expert at native or near native level, the translator needs to be trusted. As you say, the expression 'played out', is not exactly difficult to guess the meaning of, even if you have never seen it before. In conclusion, it's wrong to change the goalposts once you have finished the job. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Write with the target audience in mind | Jan 27, 2016 |
Any text has to be written with the target audience in mind. I often translate for a company with a multi-national workforce that uses English as a means of communication with people who speak a wide range of other languages. My translations for them are different from translations that will be read by native speakers of English. I don't see it as dumbing down - I see it as communicating clearly in a way that is appropriate to your audience. English is notorious for obscure phrasal verbs and str... See more Any text has to be written with the target audience in mind. I often translate for a company with a multi-national workforce that uses English as a means of communication with people who speak a wide range of other languages. My translations for them are different from translations that will be read by native speakers of English. I don't see it as dumbing down - I see it as communicating clearly in a way that is appropriate to your audience. English is notorious for obscure phrasal verbs and strange idioms - it is often easy to put things slightly differently in ways that will be clearer to people for whom English is simply a tool for doing their real job, not an object of study in itself.
And I'm sorry, but if the client thinks your language is too complex and too difficult, then it is, because the client is always right (even when he is wrong). Your task is to deliver what the client wants - not what you think he should have - and to do it in a way that also satisfies your own expectations of quality and professionalism. I think you could do this if you see it as a challenge to write clear, concise English that is right for the client and this particular audience and don't simply try to impose your own particular style willy-nilly. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dan Lucas
Reino Unido
Local time: 21:25
Membro (2014)
japonês para inglês
| Preempt with comments | Jan 27, 2016 |
dolichos wrote:
Translators from Japanese must know exactly what I'm talking about.
I would agree. Most Japanese clients (speaking from my personal experience) want to be able to see in the target a very close correspondence to the source.
The other thing is that they really dislike what they see as "inconsistency", even if the different words used are synonyms and even if "consistency" causes its own problems, such as an unpleasant rhythm or the effect of jargon.
These two characteristics tend to result in rather unnatural English. My job as I see it is to come up with the least-bad candidate within the constraints imposed by the clients.
To deal with this I use a lot of comments. Basically wherever I think a choice might be queried, I forestall it by putting in a brief explanation. For example:
Using 'operations' instead of 'business' here because 'business' has already been used twice in the sentence and another occurrence would create an ugly echo As for where I draw the line, well, because I am not required to sign my translations, I do what the client wants. My reputation is not at stake.
Of course, if the client's choice of English constitutes an error, I will flag it and tell them bluntly that they are wrong. If it's poorly worded then I briefly explain why it is likely to lead to misunderstanding.
But if they decide to go ahead then I yield gracefully and move on. It's their money, right?
Regards
Dan
| | |
|
|
|
Kay Denney
França
Local time: 22:25
francês para inglês
I have had to dumb things down for clients on occasion, particularly for Japanese readers. I sort of feel that you're in a lose-lose situation, because you can't possibly know which expressions the readers have learned and what level they are at.
And the type of text I translate for these people, on fashion trends, involve quite a few technical terms not known to the general public. You might argue that if these Japanese people are in the fashion industry then they'll know the jarg... See more I have had to dumb things down for clients on occasion, particularly for Japanese readers. I sort of feel that you're in a lose-lose situation, because you can't possibly know which expressions the readers have learned and what level they are at.
And the type of text I translate for these people, on fashion trends, involve quite a few technical terms not known to the general public. You might argue that if these Japanese people are in the fashion industry then they'll know the jargon.
The French source texts are usually beautifully written, with alliteration and punning and other literary devices for more impact and I find it very frustrating to have to keep my creative flair in check.
So I slip a few little gems in, hoping that they'll pass, some do. Rather like film directors deliberately putting scandalous scenes in the film, knowing that they'd have to pull some out to get the rating they wanted, hoping to keep one or two by pulling the rest.
I have been known to pedantically set out to prove just how common a particular turn of phrase is, arguing that if the readership doesn't know it, it's time they learnt. A certain degree of tact needs to be wielded to achieve this, since you are insinuating that the client's English is crap. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kay Denney
França
Local time: 22:25
francês para inglês
Dan Lucas wrote: To deal with this I use a lot of comments. Basically wherever I think a choice might be queried, I forestall it by putting in a brief explanation. For example: Using 'operations' instead of 'business' here because 'business' has already been used twice in the sentence and another occurrence would create an ugly echo
This is a good strategy. I have done this to keep expressions like "badass" and "sex it up" which clients automatically recoil from yet are spot-on in context. To be used sparingly though, because nobody wants to wade through endless translator notes. Most effective once you've got to know your client.
| | | | | Happens a lot | Jan 27, 2016 |
because so many people think they "know" English. I had someone tell me that they had to look up something in the dictionary (a term I had used) because they didn't think the word existed. And they want the translation to parallel the original when that would be truly awkward.
But i think translation is a collaborative effort so I Always try to communicate with the Client. We always seem to find the right solution.
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bósnia-Herzegóvina
Local time: 22:25
Membro (2009)
inglês para croata
+ ...
| "Customized English" | Jan 27, 2016 |
I suppose it's for general non-native audience in order to present the film to all of them at once (in customized English), rather than taking the trouble of translating into each of their native language respectively.
Yes, phrasal verbs are a common issue for non-native speakers (such as play out) and they indeed use them quite rarely. The issues non-native speakers will have with English reflects parallel structures in their native language (in other words, if it's not parallel/li... See more I suppose it's for general non-native audience in order to present the film to all of them at once (in customized English), rather than taking the trouble of translating into each of their native language respectively.
Yes, phrasal verbs are a common issue for non-native speakers (such as play out) and they indeed use them quite rarely. The issues non-native speakers will have with English reflects parallel structures in their native language (in other words, if it's not parallel/literal, they may have trouble understanding it).
This is an additional layer of work for you, so make sure you charge it additionally.
"Continental European English" has its own ways, and yes, it seems like it has its own rules (that everyone imported/brought from their respective native languages). ▲ Collapse
| | |
|
|
|
| I've been there | Jan 27, 2016 |
What's underneath is usually a fight for power. He thinks you must obey his orders (as he is paying) and you think you mustn't. Even if you are right, it is normally not worth the hassle. When I have to face this sort of situations, I try to accommodate their needs (after all I won't be working with them again). Of course, you should update your invoice to include your editing services.
| | | | Inga Petkelyte
Portugal
Local time: 21:25
lituano para português
+ ...
dolichos wrote: "Just because your English is crap doesn't mean mine is too complex." Obviously I can't say that.
Loved this part of your post
In essence, I agree with Armorel - any text shall be adapted to its audience.
But another question occured to me - w2ouldn't it be wise in such cases if the client hired an editor to adapt the translation?
The translator's job, after all, is to provide the most accurate and close to all hidden meanings translation.
| | | | | I thought no one would say it! | Jan 27, 2016 |
Lingua 5B wrote:
This is an additional layer of work for you, so make sure you charge it additionally.
I think this is important. It's fair enough for a client to make stylistic stipulations - though you may indeed choose not to be explicitly credited for the translation if you feel the result is a poor representation of your language skills - but anything that requires additional work should mean additional money. I think my approach would be to say that of course you want him to be pleased with the result but that it will require extra work at your usual hourly rate of X (maybe with a "pretend" discount: tell him it'll take Y hours but you'll only charge him for Z - that being the amount of time you estimate it will actually take).
| | | | | The client knows the target audience | Jan 27, 2016 |
dolichos wrote:
The client now says my English is "too complex" and "too difficult," and says that since many of the readers may not be native English speakers, I need to use simpler words. For example, I write "events playing out before his eyes" and he says "don't say 'playing out,' people might not understand, say 'happening.'" "Playing out" isn't exactly a rarefied literary term.
If the client's audience is mostly non-native readers, then a lot of them might read the text through using auto-translation software like Google translate. Results:
EN > JP
"Events playing out before his eyes" (with quotes) = "イベントは、彼の目の前に出て遊んで」 ("playing" as in playing a game or playing with kids)
Events playing out before his eyes (without quotes) = 彼の目の前に演奏イベント ("playing" as in "playing a musical instrument")
In both cases the software has a problem with the term "playing out". Replace it with "happening" and...
"Events happening before his eyes = 彼の目の前に発生するイベント (accurate translation).
If the client wants simple "just the facts ma'am" language devoid of any literary flourishes because that's what their audience needs, unless you have definitive proof that says differently, give them what they want.
| | |
|
|
|
dolichos
turco para inglês
CRIADOR(A) DO TÓPICO | Great answers | Jan 28, 2016 |
Thanks to everyone who took the trouble to reply.
I agree of course that "the customer is always right," even when he is not. Reminds me of the original source of that quote, Marshall Field's slogan that "The customer is always right, when she thinks she is.
Being realistic, the client's level of English is pretty poor, probably poorer than most of the people who will be reading this. He is also a friend... See more Thanks to everyone who took the trouble to reply.
I agree of course that "the customer is always right," even when he is not. Reminds me of the original source of that quote, Marshall Field's slogan that "The customer is always right, when she thinks she is.
Being realistic, the client's level of English is pretty poor, probably poorer than most of the people who will be reading this. He is also a friend, so suggesting a balance was not too out of line. And yes, phrasal verbs are the nightmare of most English students. The problem here is that beyond a phrasal verb or two, I'm having a difficult time determining what he things is "too hard." It's basically any word or expression that he doesn't know. There is some ego at play here. So rather than saying "but that's basic," I just asked him to go through and just highlight a few of the things that gave him trouble, to give me an idea.
I have taken the route of explanatory notes before, especially when I have a client who has a history of contesting everything. Often, especially while dealing with ambiguous language in academic translations, I just treat it as an editor, adding a question and a suggestion, and letting the client make the choice; that way we both know what's going down.
I have dealt with some truly horrendous translations by people who think they know English better than I do. One, for a major dairy company, had the sentence, "This miraculous liquid, emulging from the teats of our satisfied cows..." in a voice-over text. When I pointed out the problems, I was told "our translator did his MA in Chicago, he knows English." I read it. And then there was a text, for the Chamber of Commerce of a major city, that was straight-up Borat. Same attitude, I read it verbatim, complete with missing articles and a paragraph-long dependent clause with no main clause. The customer gets what he wants! ▲ Collapse
| | | | dolichos
turco para inglês
CRIADOR(A) DO TÓPICO
Eileen Cartoon wrote:
because so many people think they "know" English. I had someone tell me that they had to look up something in the dictionary (a term I had used) because they didn't think the word existed. And they want the translation to parallel the original when that would be truly awkward.
Yes, thankfully this isn't what this customer wants, though I have dealt with it. As another poster commented, English and Turkish are vastly different languages, and a parallel translation is often not only awkward, it is impossible. For example Turkish dependent clauses are basically adjectival constructions that come before the subject. This lets you run on quite elegantly in places, because you literally have a sentence that reads something like:
"His mother during the War of Independence from Turkey having-fled, afterwards in her-migrated country with-a-rich Italian businessmen having-met-and-married George, is a well-known author."
In normal English that would come out: "George, whose mother fled Turkey during the War of Independence and met and married a rich Italian businessman in the country to which she migrated, is a well-known author." In Turkish the subject and predicate are not separated, but in English they are miles apart. If I looked I could find much more extreme examples, especially when such a construction pops up in the middle of a sentence. Combine that with the attitude among many that a longer sentence equals a more artful sentence... It just has to get broken up. It's all paraphrasing, except perhaps on contract work, where one-to-one correspondence is required. I'm so glad I don't!
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bósnia-Herzegóvina
Local time: 22:25
Membro (2009)
inglês para croata
+ ...
dolichos wrote: , "This miraculous liquid, emulging from the teats of our satisfied cows..." in a voice-over text. When I pointed out the problems, I was told "our translator did his MA in Chicago, he knows English." I read it. And then there was a text, for the Chamber of Commerce of a major city, that was straight-up Borat. Same attitude, I read it verbatim, complete with missing articles and a paragraph-long dependent clause with no main clause. The customer gets what he wants!
At least "miraculous" makes you wanna buy it : ) SF (remedy) Milk.
Yes, I feel for you, English has twisted in so many ways and will continue to do so I'm afraid. No proper standards since it became lingua franca.
But it's mostly in Europe. For instance, I always receive native English copies from my U.S. clients (as my source text).
| | | | | Páginas no tópico: [1 2] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » "Dumbing Down" English? | Anycount & Translation Office 3000 | Translation Office 3000
Translation Office 3000 is an advanced accounting tool for freelance translators and small agencies. TO3000 easily and seamlessly integrates with the business life of professional freelance translators.
More info » |
| | Wordfast Pro | Translation Memory Software for Any Platform
Exclusive discount for ProZ.com users!
Save over 13% when purchasing Wordfast Pro through ProZ.com. Wordfast is the world's #1 provider of platform-independent Translation Memory software. Consistently ranked the most user-friendly and highest value
Buy now! » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
Translation news
