Spotting for quick shot changes in documentary Thread poster: Lisa Cernohorsky Oliveira
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Hello
I have to subtitle a documentary from Spanish to German. The subtitles will be shown at film festivals in Germany. I've come across a main concern and I also have a few smaller questions and I since I don't have much professional experience yet, I could use some advice from someone with more experience.
Main concern:
The documentary has a lot of shot changes in very short intervals.
For example, every one or two seconds you alternate between a man walking t... See more Hello
I have to subtitle a documentary from Spanish to German. The subtitles will be shown at film festivals in Germany. I've come across a main concern and I also have a few smaller questions and I since I don't have much professional experience yet, I could use some advice from someone with more experience.
Main concern:
The documentary has a lot of shot changes in very short intervals.
For example, every one or two seconds you alternate between a man walking through the city and a photo of a woman, and the whole time a person just says one very long sentence.
I've learned that ideally you shouldn't spread a sentence over several subtitles, and that you shouldn't leave the subtitles over the shot changes. It's just that I can't keep to these two rules at the same time. I know that I can leave some subtitles over several shots, but that is supposed to be an exceptional case and in my case I would have to do it all the way through. What method can I use so that the viewer is not disturbed in his reading flow and is not confused by subtitles that go over shot changes?
Additional questions:
a. Since I didn't get any guidelines, I was wondering if someone could recommend me general German guidelines for film festivals. I was looking at Netflix guidelines and the ones from the AVÜ (AudioVisuelle Übersetzer*innen – AVÜ e.V.), but they contradict in several things. For instance, what the maximum reading speed should be. According to Netflix it's 17 and according to the AVÜ it's 10-15, which is a lot less.
b. I also heard that for the cinema, the number of characters per line should be shorter so that the audience doesn't have to move their head. Is that a thing, and what would the recommended number be?
Thank you very much for your help! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kristopher Brame 
United States
Local time: 03:17
Member (2018)
German to English
+ ...
That's right. It's good to avoid your subtitles going over shot changes, but it's not the most important rule. Sometimes, there's just nothing that you can do. Are you familiar with the concept of "borrowing time" in subtitling? For example, if you have 2-second sub at 10 CPS, then a 2-second sub at 20 CPS with the rest of the sentence, then you combine them to make a 4-second sub with 15 CPS. So I would try to avoid the shot changes, but if you need to borrow time and run through a shot change ... See more That's right. It's good to avoid your subtitles going over shot changes, but it's not the most important rule. Sometimes, there's just nothing that you can do. Are you familiar with the concept of "borrowing time" in subtitling? For example, if you have 2-second sub at 10 CPS, then a 2-second sub at 20 CPS with the rest of the sentence, then you combine them to make a 4-second sub with 15 CPS. So I would try to avoid the shot changes, but if you need to borrow time and run through a shot change for reading speed purposes, I would definitely do that.
Yeah, Netflix has a target of 17 CPS with a hard limit of 22.15. A lot of people say 12-16 is the best with a hard limit of 20-21. I tend to agree with that. 16 is a good target, but it's not always realistic, especially with German. I'd say if you keep most of them under 16 with some 17-20 here and there, then that's pretty good. Honestly, I think you can really push the limits because German is so long. Also, some people use a minimum of 6-8 so the audience doesn't think that you've omitted anything. But I don't think you really need to put a number on it. You can just listen and read it and decide if you think the audience would think that.
I've never heard that. I think 42 characters is fine. That's what Netflix uses and it's pretty common. The characters per line more depends on the aspect ratio. And if you subtitling a film, it won't be any narrower than 16:9, so 42 seems good. You can go to 40 if you want, but like I said, you might need a little extra with German. Hoffentlich kommt Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz nicht vor Keine Ahnung, was man in diesem Fall macht. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Gianni Pastore
Italy
Local time: 09:17
Member (2007)
English to Italian
| The shot change rule obsession... | Aug 19, 2023 |
Lisa Cernohorsky Oliveira wrote:
I've learned that ideally you shouldn't spread a sentence over several subtitles
…is taking over the subtitling practice and it’s ruining the viewer experience beyond repair. Because of metrics and over-zealous QCers, no one dares merging two subs across a shot change anymore, even if this results in having two flashing 1.5 seconds subs rather than one 3 seconds sub, and even when it's a single sentence, which I find absurd. I always end up merging the heck out of them.
| | | | Mr. Satan (X)
English to Indonesian
Kristopher Brame wrote:
Are you familiar with the concept of "borrowing time" in subtitling? For example, if you have 2-second sub at 10 CPS, then a 2-second sub at 20 CPS with the rest of the sentence, then you combine them to make a 4-second sub with 15 CPS. So I would try to avoid the shot changes, but if you need to borrow time and run through a shot change for reading speed purposes, I would definitely do that.
Gianni Pastore wrote:
[The shot change rule obsession] is taking over the subtitling practice and it’s ruining the viewer experience beyond repair. Because of metrics and over-zealous QCers, no one dares merging two subs across a shot change anymore, even if this results in having two flashing 1.5 seconds subs rather than one 3 seconds sub, and even when it's a single sentence, which I find absurd. I always end up merging the heck out of them.
Unfortunately, this is no longer a valid option if you’re working with subtitling agencies. They really hate it when you modify the master templates, even if those were poorly segmented. In fact, some agencies don't give you the ability to do this at all on their cloud platforms. Subtitlers these days have been reduced to template translators. Makes me veeeeeeeeeerrrrrry sad.
(sobbing in guttural German ‘r’)
I hope OP is working with direct clients who give her some degree of freedom.
[Edited at 2023-08-19 07:04 GMT]
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Juan Jacob
Mexico
Local time: 01:17
French to Spanish
+ ...
| The shot change rule obsession... | Aug 19, 2023 |
That's it... never understood it, neither the client.
Somebody knows who imposed that ridiculous rule?
| | | | Gianni Pastore
Italy
Local time: 09:17
Member (2007)
English to Italian
| Not all agencies | Aug 20, 2023 |
Mr. Satan wrote:
Unfortunately, this is no longer a valid option if you’re working with subtitling agencies. They really hate it when you modify the master templates, even if those were poorly segmented. In fact, some agencies don't give you the ability to do this at all on their cloud platforms. Subtitlers these days have been reduced to template translators. Makes me veeeeeeeeeerrrrrry sad.
(sobbing in guttural German ‘r’)
I hope OP is working with direct clients who give her some degree of freedom.
[Edited at 2023-08-19 07:04 GMT]
I must be lucky then, a couple of agencies I work for still give me full control of the subtitles
| | | | Kristopher Brame
United States
Local time: 03:17
Member (2018)
German to English
+ ...
| I've gotten lucky too | Aug 20, 2023 |
I've only had one agency ask me not to change the timings, and they were offering a bad rate, so I just said no. I guess it also helps that I translate into English. So a lot of times, it's just going into one language, so there's not much reason for a template. But when I do get a template, my clients don't care if I change anything, which is great!
Juan, one reason for the rule is just that it looks cleaner when the subtitles appear or disappear along with the scene. The other rea... See more I've only had one agency ask me not to change the timings, and they were offering a bad rate, so I just said no. I guess it also helps that I translate into English. So a lot of times, it's just going into one language, so there's not much reason for a template. But when I do get a template, my clients don't care if I change anything, which is great!
Juan, one reason for the rule is just that it looks cleaner when the subtitles appear or disappear along with the scene. The other reason is that there were studies suggesting that it could cause the audience to re-read a subtitle that they've already read and generally cause confusion making it less obvious when there is a new subtitle. But I saw someone post a study using eye tracking data that suggested that viewers don't have a problem with this. So that second point seems a bit inconclusive. Anyway, I still adhere to the rule, but I prioritize the other rules. Reading speed is clearly more important. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | That is why the shot change rule | Aug 20, 2023 |
Juan Jacob wrote:
That's it... never understood it, neither the client.
Somebody knows who imposed that ridiculous rule?
is one of the stupidest rules in Netflix rule book. And there are many, at lease for Serbian language. I even suggested one change in their rules (quots: „these” and not "these") and they accepted this. I have translated over 900 films, mostly from scratch, and NEVER followed that rule. No agency or TVs from former Yugoslavia states asked me to follow that rule. Croatian state TV, HRT, even stretches one sub over two or three shot changes. They maybe exaggerate a bit but that rule isn't possible to apply in most films. And it's not true that a sub over a shot change distracts the viewers. That imposed someone who didn't know anything about subtitling and just wanted to have something to molest subtitlers with.
If they care so much about viewers, why do they allow this:
Race to Witch Mountain on HBO3 Serbia:
- "Alien abductions," translated as "autopsy" (autopsy is "obdukcija" in Serbian).
Wild film on HBO2 Serbia:
- "Zipless fuck," translated as "Sex without a zipper."
The Walking Dead show on Fox Serbia:
- "They are scary, but they have got nothing on you," translated as "... but they know nothing about you".
The Gilmore Girls show on DIVA Serbia:
- "My first class is cancelled today," translated as "My luxury one was cancelled" (bus).
The Two and a Half Men show on Fox Serbia (and on other TVs):
- "My carpal tunnel is acting up," translated as "My boss will carp at me again."
- "Turn tricks," translated as "Show tricks" (like a magician);
- "Knock-off Gucci bag," translated as "A fantastic bag."
The Las Vegas show on Fox Crime Serbia:
- "With a tape measure," translated as "With a camera";
- "Naked trumps fear," translated as "I fear of nudity";
- "Is that Ed with the maintenance guy?" Trans. as "Is Ed now a head of the maintenance service?"
[Edited at 2023-08-20 21:06 GMT]
[Edited at 2023-08-20 21:07 GMT]
[Edited at 2023-08-21 00:53 GMT]
[Edited at 2023-08-21 00:58 GMT]
[Edited at 2023-08-21 15:07 GMT]
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Thank you all for your answers. It was all very helpful!
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