| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | Off topic: Have you given up flying? Thread poster: Tom in London
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Lingua 5B 
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 16:56
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
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Trees grow back. Paper is not a problem. And if people listen to some of what she says…
Maybe what the world needs is for people to have a basic understanding of what REALLY matters for the planet. Plastic straws and printing your translations are not it.
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: empty | | Pence for your thoughts | Jul 27, 2023 |
In the meantime, we have this:
Pence's plan would eliminate the EPA, tax credits for electric vehicles, Biden's "residential clean energy credit" and repeal Biden's subsidies for automakers to make electric vehicle batteries.
I repeat: we are fixed.
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Philip Lees wrote: In the meantime, we have this: Pence's plan would eliminate the EPA, tax credits for electric vehicles, Biden's "residential clean energy credit" and repeal Biden's subsidies for automakers to make electric vehicle batteries. I repeat: we are fixed.
Thing is, governments aren’t independent of the people. They reflect the views of the majority, who just want to carry on as normal.
We won’t meet the climate targets set. The planet may or may not get really hot as a result, or for other reasons. Future generations will probably adapt just fine.
There HAS to be some accommodation of current generations’ wants and needs / human nature.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:56
Member (2008)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
Ice Scream wrote:
..... Throwing orange paint alienates people....
Maybe, but it got your attention.
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Ice Scream wrote:
It's not that simple, Kay. You and everyone else generate loads of avoidable carbon from things other than flying, driving and meat.
Yes, we need to talk about those other things too. That doesn't mean we don't need to talk about flying.
Ice Scream wrote:
As we all know, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. You can't shame people for flying (and there is a ganging-up going on here before anyone denies it) unless you have your own footprint in order.
By this argument no-one is ever allowed to discuss anything. You can have the conversations that create change without being perfect yourself. And we need to do this, because it's impossible to be perfect living in a deeply flawed system. Also, where is the shaming and ganging up in this thread? There isn't any. Talking about the damage caused by flying does not equate to shaming.
Ice Scream wrote:
Flying less is a more effective goal than no flying. Throwing orange paint alienates people. Greenpeace and the rest need to think about who they are trying to get on board.
It's not Greenpeace throwing orange paint as far as I know and I believe that there are studies showing that the kind of stunt that Just Stop Oil engage in do actually motivate people to join less radical movements even if they're not up for blocking traffic and throwing paint around. They do work. Though I don't know what that has to do with this topic as I don't believe those campaigns are targeting people taking flights specifically.
Ice Scream wrote:
It also seems to me to that most people who have "given up flying" are people who have already seen the world. Is that fair?
Not really, lots of people choose not to fly in the first place. I hadn't flown very much before I decided to stop.
| | | | Joe France
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:56
Member (2016)
German to English
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Lingua 5B wrote:
Using paper for her book? Unforgivable.... A lot of trees are crying.
It's been thoroughly unsurprising but equally depressing to see this thread devolve into pearl-clutching and finger-pointing – and, finally, primary school-level jibes and links to tweets from one of the barmiest people in the UK. I assume we're only a few posts away from some tin-foil hat nonsense about 15 minute cities...
Yes, Greta Thunberg has written a book. Yes, some of it will be printed on paper. But that's because engaging people and talking to people is part of the process. And forgive me, Lingua 5B, if it was meant in jest, but given that it's the exact argument trotted out by politicians in the UK to justify continued inaction, all I could think of was this meme:
We all know flying has a massive carbon footprint. I also think, when there's something as important as the future of human life on Earth at stake (and nobody here is seriously arguing to the contrary, are they?) that some evangelising on this topic is entirely justifiable. To my mind, a little climate pressure (and shame, if you choose to take it like that) is pretty mild given the scale of the issue.
It's all well and good to say "oh but China/India does X, Y and Z..." and yes, they do – but China is also building renewables at a frankly incredible rate. While I'm not saying that doesn't have its own ethical and environmental issues, where is the "but China" argument going to stand in a few years if they've taken massive strides to reduce their footprint?
As for JSO's orange paint: annoying, yes, but it's got people talking, hasn't it? And by people I mean ordinary people, not just a 30 second segment about climate change on the 6 o'clock news. Whether their tactics prove useful or entire unhelpful in the end, only time will tell.
[Edited at 2023-07-27 08:37 GMT]
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:56
Member (2008)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
Rachel Waddington wrote:
....I don't know what that has to do with this topic as I don't believe those campaigns are targeting people taking flights specifically
They're targeting the companies that extract and process the fossil fuels that are burned in jet engines.
| | | | Jo Macdonald
Spain
Local time: 16:56
Italian to English
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| Flying and heat pumps | Jul 27, 2023 |
Flying less, planes are huge fuel burners. Would use the train if Spain-UK-Italy wasn't 5x the price of plane tickets. Living sustainably can and should be a cheaper than consuming and polluting.
Heat pumps are very efficient if used right, see: https://www.greenpeace.org.uk/news/heat-pump-facts/
My heating bill dropped from €300 of firewood to €40 of ele... See more Flying less, planes are huge fuel burners. Would use the train if Spain-UK-Italy wasn't 5x the price of plane tickets. Living sustainably can and should be a cheaper than consuming and polluting.
Heat pumps are very efficient if used right, see: https://www.greenpeace.org.uk/news/heat-pump-facts/
My heating bill dropped from €300 of firewood to €40 of electricity per winter after installing a heat pump. But we need to know how to use heat pumps and other natural methods to control indoor temperature.
In summer:
Open windows on cool nights, close on hot afternoons. Fans create a 5-10 degree windchill sensation on the skin without using aircon. A 12VDC fan is very efficient (e.g. 2W min. - 12W max.). In hot climes paint roof white to keep tiles cool to the touch instead of baking hot. Airspace and reflective roof/shutter box insulation really helps stop heat transfer. If the doors/windows are closed, air source heat pumps are most efficient cooling when the outdoor air temp is cooler at night, and energy may also be a lot cheaper. You need less cooling on lower floors as heat rises to the higher floors (stacking). A window slightly open on the top floor will let hot air out to limit accumulation, cool air is heavier so will tend to stay in the lower floors with windows closed to limit circulation. Heat pump in "Cool" mode if really necessary. Don't use "Auto" mode. Setting a temperature lower than 25 degrees C or leaving windows open in a room with aircon on will not make the home cooler, it just wastes electricity.
About "Auto" mode
Leaving a heat pump on 24/7 in "Auto" mode is a huge waste of energy. In Auto mode the heat pump cycles between Heating and Cooling to maintain the set temp. Use Heat in winter and Cool if needed on really hot summer days. A heat pump with a WiFi connection lets you turn it on/off remotely and automatically with a daily timer, and you can check consumption.
Heat pump powered by solar panels?
A modern R32 inverter heat pump is very efficient and does not use freon. In really hot or cold climes a water source heat pump will be much more efficient.
[Edited at 2023-07-27 09:08 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Our resident sceptics | Jul 27, 2023 |
Joe France wrote:
....there's something as important as the future of human life on Earth at stake (and nobody here is seriously arguing to the contrary, are they?)
Reading back through the thread, I would suggest that the comments from both "Ice Cream" and "Lingua 5B" (both coincidentally under the cloak of anonymity, although I think I know who the former is from when I was on here years ago) could justifiably be described as "climate sceptic", although to be fair, there's not much in the way of serious counter argument. Just a combination of "yeah but you've all got a carbon footprint too" (as per your cartoon) and "we can't do everything so let's do nothing". Nothing you'd call exactly intellectually rigorous.
And in passing, my view on "shaming" is that shame is internal. If one believes one's actions and beliefs are correct in respect of a given matter, one cannot feel shame about them. Shame is only felt by those who know, somewhere and somehow, that they are, in some sense, in the wrong.
| | | | Maciek Drobka
Poland
Local time: 16:56
Member (2006)
English to Polish
+ ...
My heating bill dropped from €300 of firewood to €40 of electricity per winter after installing a heat pump. But we need to know how to use heat pumps and other natural methods to control indoor temperature.
The drop looks impressive! Would you be willing to share how much you had to invest in having a heat pump installed? Can you expect a reasonable return-on-investment timeframe? Say, up to 10 years?
I decided to invest in a solar panel system 2 years ago and expect to see an up to 8 years' return on investment. (Approx. 6 years left.) However, heat pump prices have gone through the roof in Poland in the past 2-3 years, so as a person nearing 50, I'll leave it to my children to decide whether they want a heat pump installed in the house, and just perhaps help them finance the investment. 
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:56
Member (2008)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER | The new problem | Jul 27, 2023 |
Maciek Drobka wrote:
..... heat pump prices have gone through the roof in Poland in the past 2-3 years...
That's the new problem with heat pumps. Everybody wants them, so the combination of high demand/low supply means that prices have shot up.
Added to which there is a shortage of skilled technicians who know how to install heat pumps.
The important thing about installing a heat pump is that first of all you must insulate your house to the maximum possible extent so that you're not wasting the heat generated by the heat pump.
[Edited at 2023-07-27 13:39 GMT]
| | | | Maciek Drobka
Poland
Local time: 16:56
Member (2006)
English to Polish
+ ...
| Unattractive ROI | Jul 27, 2023 |
Tom in London wrote:
Everybody wants them, so the combination of high demand/low supply means that prices have shot up.
Added to which there is a shortage of skilled technicians who know how to install heat pumps.
The important thing about installing a heat pump is that first of all you must insulate your house to the maximum possible extent so that you're not wasting the heat generated by the heat pump.
[Edited at 2023-07-27 12:50 GMT]
To me, adding insulation cost to the already high cost of having a heat pump installed makes this particular technology highly unattractive economically. Heaven knows how much I'd have to wait for a return on my investment. 
| | | | Jo Macdonald
Spain
Local time: 16:56
Italian to English
+ ...
| The most efficient and reliable one | Jul 27, 2023 |
The most efficient and reliable heat pump at the time was Panasonic, then Mitsubishi. For the volume of air I wanted to heat the split cost €600, installation was €200, pre-pandemic.
I was highly skeptical about the claimed 50cents/day consumption and totally anti-aircon before. Now totally convinced, instead of burning €3/400 of wood (renewable but not eco-friendly) the heat pump is about €40/winter. The next village project is a solar farm to supply half the village's powe... See more The most efficient and reliable heat pump at the time was Panasonic, then Mitsubishi. For the volume of air I wanted to heat the split cost €600, installation was €200, pre-pandemic.
I was highly skeptical about the claimed 50cents/day consumption and totally anti-aircon before. Now totally convinced, instead of burning €3/400 of wood (renewable but not eco-friendly) the heat pump is about €40/winter. The next village project is a solar farm to supply half the village's power needs. If that works then rooftop systems for the other half so heating should soon be pretty much cheap, independent and clean.
There's lots more info in the first blog post on my website.
Insulation doesn't have to be expensive. The reflective foil with air space we did last winter was about €100, painting roof white about the same for a pressure washer, already had the paint. Both DIY, few days work. Study it first though cause you can reduce thermal inertia or install stuff in a way that's ineffective.
Maciek Drobka wrote:
My heating bill dropped from €300 of firewood to €40 of electricity per winter after installing a heat pump. But we need to know how to use heat pumps and other natural methods to control indoor temperature.
The drop looks impressive! Would you be willing to share how much you had to invest in having a heat pump installed? Can you expect a reasonable return-on-investment timeframe? Say, up to 10 years? I decided to invest in a solar panel system 2 years ago and expect to see an up to 8 years' return on investment. (Approx. 6 years left.) However, heat pump prices have gone through the roof in Poland in the past 2-3 years, so as a person nearing 50, I'll leave it to my children to decide whether they want a heat pump installed in the house, and just perhaps help them finance the investment.
[Edited at 2023-07-27 14:14 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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